Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Jul 28, 2014 | 8:36 am
#901
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
You've got to remember how extortinate fuel is in many European countries though, most people don't even carry the the Ł80 or Ł90 (135 and 155 USD respectively) to fill up their car (I'm lucky if thats enough to fill up my car as Diesel is even more expensive!)! So I don't think paying cash for fuel would catch on! Its not like in the US where you can hand the cashier 40 or 50 dollars and it'll almost fill up a sedan. + A lot of people use cash back credit cards (the Santander 123 World MasterCard and American Express Platinum Cashback card is very popular in the UK), where you get 3% to 5% back on petrol anyway, so you'd still be breaking even. (+ The fact its illegal to charge extra to charge a credit card price for petrol in many EU member states, so its not really an issue).
Jul 28, 2014 | 9:11 am
#902
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
That seems to be the general opinion but outside of London most public transport is shocking in the UK. On weekends a lot of public transport isn't even running. I don't have much better experiences in a lot of other non-capital European cities (although some are good).
Jul 28, 2014 | 9:23 am
#903
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
That seems to be the general opinion but outside of London most public transport is shocking in the UK. On weekends a lot of public transport isn't even running. I don't have much better experiences in a lot of other non-capital European cities (although some are good).
Jul 28, 2014 | 9:25 am
#904
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
Jul 28, 2014 | 7:39 pm
#905
Join Date: Mar 2007
Programs: QFF Gold, Flying Blue, Enrich
Posts: 5,369
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. By definition, a FTF will be levied on any foreign transactions, regardless of the currency denomination of the transaction. So even in the person faced with this choice follows this advice exactly and "correctly" chooses DCC because the fee is only 2% vs. the issuer's 3%, the customer will have just paid a 5% surcharge for that transaction. Never ever accept DCC, especially if your card has a FTF. The choice is abundantly clear if your card charges a FTF.
Jul 28, 2014 | 7:54 pm
#906
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
That seems to be the general opinion but outside of London most public transport is shocking in the UK. On weekends a lot of public transport isn't even running. I don't have much better experiences in a lot of other non-capital European cities (although some are good).
Jul 28, 2014 | 8:08 pm
#907
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Also, I've pulled some transactions from statements.
Here are the ones from CSP:
05/31 IPPUDO SINGAPORE 38.52
06/01 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
48.26 X 0.798176543 (EXCHG RATE)
06/02 POPEYES CHICKEN & BISCUIT SINGAPORE 12.7706/02 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
16.00 X 0.798125000 (EXCHG RATE)
05/31 JUMBO SEAFOOD PTE LTD SINGAPORE 94.0206/02 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
117.82 X 0.797996944 (EXCHG RATE)
Ones from United Club card:06/01 SINGAPORE ZOO-TICKETING SINGAPORE 102.18
06/01 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
128.00 X 0.798281250 (EXCHG RATE)
05/31 DFS VENTURE S P/L - SCOTT SINGAPORE 37.5206/01 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
47.00 X 0.798297872 (EXCHG RATE)
06/02 SINGAPORE FLYER PL SINGAPORE 52.6706/02 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
66.00 X 0.798030303 (EXCHG RATE)
05/31 COLD STORAGE-BJ SINGAPORE 24.5806/02 SINGAPORE DOLLAR
30.80 X 0.798051948 (EXCHG RATE)
You see for posting date 6/1, Club vs CSP is 0.798297872 / 0.798176543 max, which is 0.015% higher; and for 6/2 is 0.798051948 / 0.797996944 max, which is 0.007% higher. Also, you see Club rates are always higher than CSP, no exceptions.Visaeurope.com gives 0.7983390000 for 6/1 and 0.7983390000 for 6/2, and Visa.com gives 0.798260 for 6/1 and 0.798260 for 6/2.
Jul 28, 2014 | 10:28 pm
#908
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
06/05 IPPUDO AUSTRALIA PTY SYDNEY 73.87
06/05 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
79.00 X 0.935063291 (EXCHG RATE)
Let's compare my use of CSP:06/06 PAPINELLE PTY LTD PADDINGTON 207.01
06/09 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
221.00 X 0.936696832 (EXCHG RATE)
06/07 PLINE PH WORLD SQ SYDNEY 37.7606/09 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
40.31 X 0.936740262 (EXCHG RATE)
06/07 FUJIYA JAPANESE REST SYDNEY 69.6006/09 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
74.30 X 0.936742934 (EXCHG RATE)
with my use of the Marriott Rewards Premier card:06/08 GUZMAN Y GOMEZ WORLD SYDNEY 22.95
06/09 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
24.50 X 0.936734693 (EXCHG RATE)
06/10 COLES QUEENS PLAZA QLD 13.6406/09 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
14.56 X 0.936813186 (EXCHG RATE)
06/08 MCDONALDS WYNYARD RAM SYDNEY 7.5906/09 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
8.10 X 0.937037037 (EXCHG RATE)
The exchange rates on the Marriott card seem to be slightly higher on average than the CSP, and both rates are higher than the Visa USA rate of 0.936106 for June 9th. If you use the June 9th Visa USA rate, you'll get discrepancies for most of the posted transaction amounts. However, if I look at the Account Activity online, I see that all of the transactions actually have a Post Date of June 10th. If instead I use the Visa USA rate for June 10th, which was 0.936706, you will find all of the posted amounts will match if you take each transaction's AUD amount, multiply it by the 0.936706 rate, and round to the nearest cent. It's a bit cumbersome, but I believe this method should work when requesting credit for a forced DCC transaction. In summary for Chase cards:- Save your receipt and wait for the transaction to post to the Account Activity online
- Use the Visa USA exchange rate from the Post Date and multiply the exchange rate by the amount of the local currency on the receipt
- Subtract the result from the USD amount on your receipt to determine the dollar amount by which you were overcharged due to DCC
- File a dispute with Chase for this amount and request a Reason Code 76 chargeback stating that you were not offered the option of paying in the local currency
Jul 28, 2014 | 10:44 pm
#909
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
but I believe this method should work when requesting credit for a forced DCC transaction. In summary for Chase cards:
- Save your receipt and wait for the transaction to post to the Account Activity online
- Use the Visa USA exchange rate from the Post Date and multiply the exchange rate by the amount of the local currency on the receipt
- Subtract the result from the USD amount on your receipt to determine the dollar amount by which you were overcharged due to DCC
- File a dispute with Chase for this amount and request a Reason Code 76 chargeback stating that you were not offered the option of paying in the local currency
To tell whether you've been DCCed: if card currency amount (us$ in your case) on the slip matches posted amount, DCC.
Reason code 76 chargeback: always ask for full chargeback in the first instance. Never offer to calculate what the amount should have been as it is merchant's obligation to post in local currency properly after chargeback completed. Only where issuer does not offer to chargeback do you accept a calculated settlement.
Jul 28, 2014 | 11:05 pm
#910
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
Thank you! Not long ago a friend of mine was telling me how wonderful it was that BHV in Paris (owned by Galeries Lafayette iirc) could charge her in Australian dollars, therefore saving her oodles of money. Hard as I tried I could not convince her to select euros next time she was faced with DCC. I'm going to commit your post to memory as it explains beautifully and clearly what I was trying to tell her.
I don't know if Australian card issuers use currency conversion fees or foreign transaction fees. In the US, pretty much all issuers now use foreign transaction fees for cards that have them, so you'll get hit with the FTF even if you choose DCC.
A quick way to end any argument with DCC is ask the person why would the merchant be providing such a service if there was no economic benefit to the merchant? There's good money to be made in currency conversion, and you needn't look further than any of the currency exchange booths at an international airport. The merchant provides DCC as a value-added service, and the customer pays a premium for using that service.
Jul 28, 2014 | 11:09 pm
#911
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
With respect I disagree:
To tell whether you've been DCCed: if card currency amount (us$ in your case) on the slip matches posted amount, DCC.
Reason code 76 chargeback: always ask for full chargeback in the first instance. Never offer to calculate what the amount should have been as it is merchant's obligation to post in local currency properly after chargeback completed. Only where issuer does not offer to chargeback do you accept a calculated settlement.
To tell whether you've been DCCed: if card currency amount (us$ in your case) on the slip matches posted amount, DCC.
Reason code 76 chargeback: always ask for full chargeback in the first instance. Never offer to calculate what the amount should have been as it is merchant's obligation to post in local currency properly after chargeback completed. Only where issuer does not offer to chargeback do you accept a calculated settlement.
You're the expert on Reason Code 76 chargebacks, so in the event I ever have to file one, I will do it for the full amount. I've never pursued a chargeback for DCC, but when I've done domestic transactions in which I've been overcharged the issuer has always asked me by how much. I incorrectly assumed the procedure would be similar for DCC.But hey... it's not really my job to figure out by how much I've been overcharged with DCC now is it? The merchant brought on this problem, so it's on the merchant to fix it.
Jul 29, 2014 | 12:40 am
#912
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I've got one of those too...
06/05 IPPUDO AUSTRALIA PTY SYDNEY 73.87
06/05 IPPUDO AUSTRALIA PTY SYDNEY 73.87
06/05 AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR
79.00 X 0.935063291 (EXCHG RATE)
If you use the June 9th Visa USA rate, you'll get discrepancies for most of the posted transaction amounts. However, if I look at the Account Activity online, I see that all of the transactions actually have a Post Date of June 10th. If instead I use the Visa USA rate for June 10th, which was 0.936706...
Regarding the posting date issue, you are saying even though the posting date listed in the statement is 6/9, it is actually 6/10 by looking at the activities page? I will go back and check it out...
You're the expert on Reason Code 76 chargebacks, so in the event I ever have to file one, I will do it for the full amount. I've never pursued a chargeback for DCC, but when I've done domestic transactions in which I've been overcharged the issuer has always asked me by how much. I incorrectly assumed the procedure would be similar for DCC.
I haven't tried disputing DCC with Chase for months, as I didn't get many (just one). I don't know whether Chase's system has changed, but I remember I couldn't simply request a "reason code 76 chargeback" without filing a dispute online, thus requiring the "correct amount" as it couldn't be left blank...
Jul 29, 2014 | 12:47 am
#913
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
zxylsy - oh. I'm not aware Chase's system works like that. In HK we file paper forms and I fill in foreign currency that should have been charged (even if the forms ask for HKD).
That way, the bank has no easy claim to pay me off and have to chargeback the issuer and merchant instead. Which is exactly what I want done.
That way, the bank has no easy claim to pay me off and have to chargeback the issuer and merchant instead. Which is exactly what I want done.
Jul 29, 2014 | 1:36 am
#914
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
zxylsy - oh. I'm not aware Chase's system works like that. In HK we file paper forms and I fill in foreign currency that should have been charged (even if the forms ask for HKD).
That way, the bank has no easy claim to pay me off and have to chargeback the issuer and merchant instead. Which is exactly what I want done.
That way, the bank has no easy claim to pay me off and have to chargeback the issuer and merchant instead. Which is exactly what I want done.
So this "correct amount" is kinda important. No so high that we feel guilty, but not so low that we lose money...
Also, having been following your posts, I see you pay particular attention to the difference between being charged in HKD and being charged in foreign currencies. I think this may be because HK banks give extra promo miles for foreign currency charges?
With Chase, it doesn't matter, so whether the merchant charges you which currency, the final number is gonna be USD, whether DCC does that for you, or Visa does that for you. And, the miles we get is only related to the final USD number.
In case you get credit for the DCC difference, you just get less miles according to that difference. It is all post-currency-conversion.
Therefore I don't have the absolute pressure to pursue chargebacks. If the gap is filled by whomever, I am all OK.
Jul 29, 2014 | 1:49 am
#915
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
https://www.redhotoffers.hsbc.com.hk...erchant-offer/
"13.Cardholders...are entitled to receive an extra $1 RewardCash for every HK$20 equivalent spent in respect of each single overseas transaction (as defined in Clause 14)
14.Overseas transactions are transactions conducted outside Hong Kong and in any currency except Hong Kong Dollars. "
http://www.citibank.com.hk/english/c...p=HKENCCPWAGD2
"4. This promotion applies to "Eligible Transactions" made by the Eligible Card during the Promotion Period. Eligible Transactions include
a. "Eligible Local Transactions" which refer to all local retail transactions, monthly installments of the newly-billed interest-free installment plan and cash advances posted during the Promotion Period and made in Hong Kong dollars, Renminbi & Macau Patacas.
b. "Eligible Overseas Transactions" which refer to all overseas retail transactions and cash advances posted during the Promotion Period and made in foreign currencies (excluding Renminbi & Macau Patacas)
5. ...Cardholders...can enjoy the "Promotional Miles Earn Rate" on "Subsequent Local Transactions" or "Subsequent Overseas Transactions" (i.e. HK$5,001 and above subsequent Eligible Transactions) in the same respective phase, as shown below...
...Promotional Miles Earn Rate on Subsequent Local Transactions...HK$5,000 HK$5,001 and above HK$5= 1 Asia Miles
...Promotional Miles Earn Rate on Subsequent Overseas Transactions...HK$5,001 and above HK$2= 1 Asia Miles "
[Also, Citi HK has prohibited the awarding of any points whatsoever on DCC transactions so a HK$ transaction not incurred in HK can be understood to earn no points/miles. That's why I stopped the boat at Taj Exotica Maldives]