Dec 18, 2019, 12:31 pm
Last edit by: wyogold
Related discussions in other Flyertalk forums:
AA potentially closing accounts due to credit card churning/churn
How to know if you're locked: (as of 12/22/2019)
- Call in to aadvantage reservations (800-882-8880) If you locked, you'll be forwarded to customer service instead of getting to the automated reservations system
- If you want to stay on the line, ask CSR if your account is locked (you tried to make a reservation but it wouldn't let you). CSR will inform you there's a note on your account and that corporate security will contact you
- Try to make a reservation for a super cheap hotel through useaamiles.com. There are 1000 miles / night hotels in New Delhi, so at worst you'll risk 1K miles. If you're locked, you'll see "Unable to process points. Please call our customer service for assistance."
So far, nobody seems to have gotten unlocked and gotten access to their miles back. Accounts with upcoming travel seem to be the ones that are getting terminated at the highest rate.
AA potentially closing accounts due to credit card churning/churn
How to know if you're locked: (as of 12/22/2019)
- Call in to aadvantage reservations (800-882-8880) If you locked, you'll be forwarded to customer service instead of getting to the automated reservations system
- If you want to stay on the line, ask CSR if your account is locked (you tried to make a reservation but it wouldn't let you). CSR will inform you there's a note on your account and that corporate security will contact you
- Try to make a reservation for a super cheap hotel through useaamiles.com. There are 1000 miles / night hotels in New Delhi, so at worst you'll risk 1K miles. If you're locked, you'll see "Unable to process points. Please call our customer service for assistance."
So far, nobody seems to have gotten unlocked and gotten access to their miles back. Accounts with upcoming travel seem to be the ones that are getting terminated at the highest rate.
AA accounts restricted (Nov/Dec 2019)
Jul 6, 2020, 6:19 pm
#3346
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Jul 6, 2020, 6:31 pm
#3347
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: LAX
Posts: 10,909
opening multiple AA accounts = AA domain and violation of AA rules
opening multiple cards is none of AA business if citi chose to do so - citi paid AA for all those miles
opening multiple cards is none of AA business if citi chose to do so - citi paid AA for all those miles
Jul 6, 2020, 6:39 pm
#3348
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
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For three people in two years that would still be quite a challenge to do without breaking the rules. And that's before considering which promo codes were used.
Jul 6, 2020, 7:06 pm
#3349
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
I meant...
5 varients, 3 people. If they got all 5, 15 accounts max. But they had 45 Citi AA cards. If they were perfectly split, that would mean each had 3 of the exact same card type. There is no reasonable excuse for that. Even if one could argue a reason for more than one of the same card... we are talking 3 people doing it across 5 types, 3 times each for a total of 45 AA Citi cards. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
(And we are not even addressing the multiple AA accounts.)
Jul 6, 2020, 7:06 pm
#3350
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,129
This is the law firm that AA is using in the DOT complaint - https://www.kmazuckert.com/
The answer proves AA will throw in a lot of money in legal fees to fight these cases.
In my experience, this kind of defendant will ignore demand letters until you actually file a complaint in court and force them to file an answer. With the type of evidence AA has, it appears there is a high risk that AA will request summary judgment and if you draw the wrong judge, you are toast.
Nobody is going to take this kind of case on a contingency fee basis.
The answer proves AA will throw in a lot of money in legal fees to fight these cases.
In my experience, this kind of defendant will ignore demand letters until you actually file a complaint in court and force them to file an answer. With the type of evidence AA has, it appears there is a high risk that AA will request summary judgment and if you draw the wrong judge, you are toast.
Nobody is going to take this kind of case on a contingency fee basis.
Jul 6, 2020, 7:28 pm
#3351
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,477
This is the law firm that AA is using in the DOT complaint - https://www.kmazuckert.com/
... AA will throw in a lot of money in legal fees ...
... AA will throw in a lot of money in legal fees ...
Jul 7, 2020, 5:13 am
#3352
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Most interesting is AA's request that DOT require the complainant to verify her Complaint as required by DOT rules. E.g., verify the truthfulness of every fact she states and be willing to suffer the maximum 5-year term of imprisonment for violating 18 USC Section 1001 if she has made materially false statements.
No holds barred in this response. Clearly, AA did this to get the facts out there and also demonstrate its capacity to track what many thought it could not.
No holds barred in this response. Clearly, AA did this to get the facts out there and also demonstrate its capacity to track what many thought it could not.
Isn’t the AA-used lawyer/firm in that response still on a fixed retainer?
Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 7, 2020 at 6:06 am
Jul 7, 2020, 6:16 am
#3353
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Programs: AA Plat
Posts: 1,335
You have to file a formal complaint using a specif template and put it in the DOT docket. The best advice I've seen about that process is here: How to file and pursue a consumer complaint against an airline ? and the DOT “formal complaint” process – Ben Edelman.
Jul 7, 2020, 8:09 am
#3354
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AA’s lawyers are not in a position to act as federal criminal prosecutors, no matter what scare language they put up to try to intimidate complaining parties and may be theoretically applicable. I suspect that the offices of US Attorneys usually have way too many other things cooking than to kiss up to AA on behalf of AA’s issues with crazy credit card applicants whose applications with the banks aren’t easily sold to a jury as being financial fraud. Federal prosecutions are not cheap, even as the US DOJ has lots of prosecutors on tap for rather fixed costs.
Isn’t the AA-used lawyer/firm in that response still on a fixed retainer?
Isn’t the AA-used lawyer/firm in that response still on a fixed retainer?
2. No idea what their fee arrangements are. But, whatever the fees are, has to be profitable for the firm and manageable for AA.
3. I haven't suggested that the Justice Department will prosecute anyone. The 1001 certification, if DOT requires it, makes a civil case a lot easier as well.
4. Don't rule out the Justice Department doing 1-2 cases just to send a message. Happens all the time. Not as though someone has to go to the gallows for this, but a felony conviction for one person would scare the pants off a cottage industry.
Jul 7, 2020, 2:59 pm
#3355
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Posts: 102,095
3. I haven't suggested that the Justice Department will prosecute anyone. The 1001 certification, if DOT requires it, makes a civil case a lot easier as well.
4. Don't rule out the Justice Department doing 1-2 cases just to send a message. Happens all the time. Not as though someone has to go to the gallows for this, but a felony conviction for one person would scare the pants off a cottage industry.
4. Don't rule out the Justice Department doing 1-2 cases just to send a message. Happens all the time. Not as though someone has to go to the gallows for this, but a felony conviction for one person would scare the pants off a cottage industry.
As to DOJ/USA Offices “doing 1-2 cases [about this situation] just to send a message” and try to put up a federal felony conviction to stop this mythical “cottage industry” of credit card SUBs, I’ll believe it if I see DOJ go to court on such matter. And until then I’ll chalk it up as more of the scare-mongering that makes this such an extraordinarily entertaining forum at times.
Jul 7, 2020, 9:52 pm
#3356
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And now there's a thread related to this in the AA forum:
AA: some corporate security / fraud practices in DOT complaint response
AA: some corporate security / fraud practices in DOT complaint response
Jul 8, 2020, 1:55 am
#3357
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,632
...Here is the PDF of AA’s response to one individual, with screenshots of Flyertalk threads to boot:
https://downloads.regulations.gov/DO...tachment_1.pdf
https://downloads.regulations.gov/DO...tachment_1.pdf
(a) Shouldn't we also be able to download the complaint to which this is a response?
(b) This can't be the only complaint ever filed; shouldn't we be able to download the full range of AA responses?
I did go to the DoT web page and found nothing useful, but it is possible I missed something
Jul 8, 2020, 2:59 am
#3358
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,477
...
(a) Shouldn't we also be able to download the complaint to which this is a response?
(b) This can't be the only complaint ever filed; shouldn't we be able to download the full range of AA responses?
I did go to the DoT web page and found nothing useful, but it is possible I missed something
(a) Shouldn't we also be able to download the complaint to which this is a response?
(b) This can't be the only complaint ever filed; shouldn't we be able to download the full range of AA responses?
I did go to the DoT web page and found nothing useful, but it is possible I missed something
Jul 8, 2020, 6:26 am
#3359
Join Date: May 2011
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Posts: 4,895
This PDF document is posted at downloads.regulations.gov, so it is presumably not something that AA is purposely distributing to intimidate people. It has been made available by the government (presumably DoT). If such documents are available to the public, then:
(a) Shouldn't we also be able to download the complaint to which this is a response?
(b) This can't be the only complaint ever filed; shouldn't we be able to download the full range of AA responses?
I did go to the DoT web page and found nothing useful, but it is possible I missed something
(a) Shouldn't we also be able to download the complaint to which this is a response?
(b) This can't be the only complaint ever filed; shouldn't we be able to download the full range of AA responses?
I did go to the DoT web page and found nothing useful, but it is possible I missed something
Jul 8, 2020, 8:01 am
#3360
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,413
It's a great strategy. Heck, look at the thread on the AA page of this website. There are people who want this person to go to prison for 10 years for what happened here. Those people aren't going to have sympathy for anyone who got caught up in this, regardless of how different the facts are.