Dec 18, 2019, 12:31 pm
Last edit by: wyogold
Related discussions in other Flyertalk forums:
AA potentially closing accounts due to credit card churning/churn
How to know if you're locked: (as of 12/22/2019)
- Call in to aadvantage reservations (800-882-8880) If you locked, you'll be forwarded to customer service instead of getting to the automated reservations system
- If you want to stay on the line, ask CSR if your account is locked (you tried to make a reservation but it wouldn't let you). CSR will inform you there's a note on your account and that corporate security will contact you
- Try to make a reservation for a super cheap hotel through useaamiles.com. There are 1000 miles / night hotels in New Delhi, so at worst you'll risk 1K miles. If you're locked, you'll see "Unable to process points. Please call our customer service for assistance."
So far, nobody seems to have gotten unlocked and gotten access to their miles back. Accounts with upcoming travel seem to be the ones that are getting terminated at the highest rate.
AA potentially closing accounts due to credit card churning/churn
How to know if you're locked: (as of 12/22/2019)
- Call in to aadvantage reservations (800-882-8880) If you locked, you'll be forwarded to customer service instead of getting to the automated reservations system
- If you want to stay on the line, ask CSR if your account is locked (you tried to make a reservation but it wouldn't let you). CSR will inform you there's a note on your account and that corporate security will contact you
- Try to make a reservation for a super cheap hotel through useaamiles.com. There are 1000 miles / night hotels in New Delhi, so at worst you'll risk 1K miles. If you're locked, you'll see "Unable to process points. Please call our customer service for assistance."
So far, nobody seems to have gotten unlocked and gotten access to their miles back. Accounts with upcoming travel seem to be the ones that are getting terminated at the highest rate.
AA accounts restricted (Nov/Dec 2019)
Mar 12, 2020, 9:23 am
#3196
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,269
I don't think any banks do this. Could they? Sure. But many banks include language saying "we may issue a 1099", and then they don't because they conclude it isn't necessary. I would be willing to bet the plastic sheet on the Santander CSR's desk said "may", and craz and the CSR are simply guessing incorrectly about what will actually happen. But it's all silly anyway. Hard to understand why the pro-shutdown crowd feels the need to argue points like whether frequent flier miles will suddenly become taxable, but here we are.
Mar 12, 2020, 11:20 am
#3197
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 544
Let's not confuse what's taxable by the letter of the law with what the IRS actually bothers to enforce.
Miles are already taxed when earned from an interest-bearing account. The reason that the IRS doesn't tax miles earned on travel paid for by your employer is not because they don't consider the miles to be your property, and it's not because they don't consider them to have value -- if this was the case, they would not be taxable when earned in an interest-bearing account.
It's because it would be a massive hassle, almost impossible to enforce, and, in the end, would not generate enough income to be worth their time. Basically it would require that people not commingle personal expenses and business expenses on the same CC, or it would require ridiculously complicated line-item accounting for reimbursed expenses (made even more complicated by promotions and sign-up bonuses -- if I sign up for a card that gives me a 50k mile bonus for spending $3000 in the first 3 months, and I spend $10k in the first 3 months, and $9k are reimbursable business expenses, how much of that 50k bonus is taxable? 100%? 90%? 50%?). The IRS does not generally expect that level of accounting from individuals.
Miles are already taxed when earned from an interest-bearing account. The reason that the IRS doesn't tax miles earned on travel paid for by your employer is not because they don't consider the miles to be your property, and it's not because they don't consider them to have value -- if this was the case, they would not be taxable when earned in an interest-bearing account.
It's because it would be a massive hassle, almost impossible to enforce, and, in the end, would not generate enough income to be worth their time. Basically it would require that people not commingle personal expenses and business expenses on the same CC, or it would require ridiculously complicated line-item accounting for reimbursed expenses (made even more complicated by promotions and sign-up bonuses -- if I sign up for a card that gives me a 50k mile bonus for spending $3000 in the first 3 months, and I spend $10k in the first 3 months, and $9k are reimbursable business expenses, how much of that 50k bonus is taxable? 100%? 90%? 50%?). The IRS does not generally expect that level of accounting from individuals.
Mar 12, 2020, 2:27 pm
#3198
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 746
No longer relevant.
Last edited by OssianBlue; Jul 6, 2020 at 6:22 pm
Mar 12, 2020, 3:12 pm
#3199
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
It looks like Citi isn't willing to lie to their federal regulators. I'll bet AA is regretting their decision to do so.
Mar 12, 2020, 3:50 pm
#3201
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 746
No longer relevant.
Last edited by OssianBlue; Jul 6, 2020 at 6:22 pm
Mar 12, 2020, 3:50 pm
#3202
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 10,904
I was looking through this:https://www.consumerfinance.gov/data...ated_date_desc
But most of them are "Company has responded to the consumer and the CFPB and chooses not to provide a public response"
Edit: Here are a couple of specific ones:
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/data...detail/3545734
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/data...detail/3535279
But most of them are "Company has responded to the consumer and the CFPB and chooses not to provide a public response"
Edit: Here are a couple of specific ones:
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/data...detail/3545734
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/data...detail/3535279
Mar 13, 2020, 12:20 am
#3203
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
"Our records reflect you earned miles on your Citi® / AAdvantage® Platinum Select® accounts by making purchases on the cards. You also received bonus miles when applicable within the terms of the credit card."
Edit: And that, as they say, is that. Game, set, match in small claims court.
Edit2: To the AA people we know watch this thread--you still have time to reverse your actions and make this right.
Edit: And that, as they say, is that. Game, set, match in small claims court.
Edit2: To the AA people we know watch this thread--you still have time to reverse your actions and make this right.
and/or... Adding CITI to your argument... SCOTUS rulings. (plural). Small claims tossed out.
With the airline industry starting to struggle mightily, the timing could not be worse. DOT has - as part of its charter - to promote airlines. No way are - what AA calls "churners" - going to prevail with DOT. (Asking for more information is not the same as DOT siding with the person complaining to DOT.)
You can file a complaint to DOT about the color or AA's toilet paper. It doesn't mean you will prevail.
You can sue anyone for anything. It doesn't mean you will prevail.
Your best bet is not small claims - those will get tossed right and left. A federal class action is the best course to take... I don't think you will win, but, you can file against/within previous SCOTUS rulings allowing such suits. You can then also try and invalidate/limit AA terms. (If you don't invalidate/limit AA program terms you are done; you agreed to let AA be judge and jury. You have to invalidate/limit that in court.)
Last edited by mia; Mar 15, 2020 at 10:32 am Reason: Remove personal characterization
Mar 13, 2020, 5:08 am
#3204
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 746
No longer relevant.
Last edited by OssianBlue; Jul 6, 2020 at 6:22 pm
Mar 13, 2020, 7:01 am
#3205
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: AA PLT 3MM
Posts: 1,135
I'd just interpret that to say that you received bonus miles if the awarding of such was part of the terms of that credit card. In other words, not a statement that your behavior was in accordance with any agreement. I think you are just clutching at straws.
Mar 13, 2020, 7:06 am
#3206
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 746
No longer relevant.
Last edited by OssianBlue; Jul 6, 2020 at 6:22 pm
Mar 13, 2020, 7:09 am
#3207
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
Your termination email started with something like...
A recent investigation has determined your involvement in multiple violations of the General AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions, related to the accrual of ineligible AAdvantage miles and benefits. ....
and then they cite gaming with the CITI SUB...
...through gaming behavior, used to circumvent the Citibank/AAdvantage card enrollment bonus eligibility restrictions.
(The "you" below refer to anyone who had their account shut down. Saying "one" instead of you did not make grammatical sense.)
In AA's view, you gamed the AA system.
In your view, you did not.
CITI says you did not violate their rules. But that is irrelevant. AA says you violated AA program rules. You agreed to let AA decide.
You will need to somehow convince a judge AA does not have that right.
And then you will need to convince the judge that you were not "gaming" the system by signing up for lots of CITI cards.
AA will certainly argue that it is prima facie evidence of gaming.
You will argue it is not.
A judge will certainly ask you needed so many CITI cards. (Or AA will ask you.)
You will say for the big SUBs. (Why else would you want so many cards that offer similar/same benefits?)
I would think a judge - who likely does not have 3+ cards from one bank that were acquired in a short period of time - would strongly consider this gaming. (They may not.)
You will need to explain why you used mailers not addressed to you. You will argue it was allowed.
I would think a judge - who likely had never considered using mailers not addressed to them - would strongly consider this gaming. (They may not.)
At the end of the day, while one can argue the technical aspects it was allowed, I believe it will sound like gaming to someone not involved in signing up for lots of CC for SUBs.
(But first, you still need a judge to invalidate/limit AA's rule that they get to decide who is in their program... a rule SCOTUS has at least partially affirmed.)
Mar 13, 2020, 7:19 am
#3208
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 746
Wrong. DOT was not satisfied with that general language so AA has come back with specific language about violating a 48 month rule. That rule was not in effect and the Citi CFPB response (as well as the mailers themselves) proves it.
Mar 13, 2020, 7:28 am
#3209
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
What Citi has to say about a Citi account holder's compliance with a Citi account has nothing to do with AA's interpretation of its own rules and thus whether the same individual complied with the terms and conditions of an AA account. It could have been one or the other or both, But, in this case it is AA only.
Does not make AA's decision any more or less likely to be "sustained" in a challenge administratively or in a court.
Does not make AA's decision any more or less likely to be "sustained" in a challenge administratively or in a court.
Mar 13, 2020, 7:33 am
#3210
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,436
AA has broad discretion to terminate accounts. However, saying they terminated accounts due to " gaming behavior, used to circumvent the Citibank/AAdvantage card enrollment bonus eligibility restrictions" when Citi is saying that those restrictions were not violated would seem to be a problem for AA, even under a straight contract law analysis without benefit of any consumer friendly laws or interpretive principles.