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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 3:58 am
  #196  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder


There are also lots of news stories about the Secret Service and FBI being hit by the shutdown. But their absentee rates aren’t at 8%. But they also get paid more than the average TSA employee and are more likely to have deeper family financial means to tap than lower wage and lower net worth TSA employees.

There are even some news stories about federal government contractors being hit.
It takes a lot longer for a shutdown to hit a contractor, because they invoice at longer intervals than the federal bi-monthly pay cycle. But with the shutdown now longer than thirty days, many contractors have missed a paycheck as well, so I wonder if some of them will begin work actions as well.

But I'm not surprised that TSOs are among the first to suffer increased sick-outage. Much as we complain about whether they're actually earning their pay, it cannot be denied that they don't make much money, and missing half a month's pay hurts lower-paid workers much more than it does higher-paid workers.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 8:16 am
  #197  
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TSA is now experiencing an increase in resignations. Given low pay and lack of serious career potential, in a locale where there is decent work available, it is just as easy to jump ship to a better-paying job. Many Officers are military veterans and do not have the benefit of long-term employment to build up a rainy day fund.

FBI agents and others are much better paid and are less likely to find comparable work and less likely to give up a solid law enforcement retirement benefit.

Many contractors were issued stop work orders on the date of the shut down, so it is not a matter of when they bill; they were simply prohibited from incurring the obligation. Their employees, the people who are referred to as "contractors" but who are really employees of a contractor are in trouble because they are highly unlikely to ever be paid.

Contractors also have to pay their people to work, if authorized. Only the federal government can both require an individual to work and then not pay him. Contractors also have other payments they cannot escape, e.g. rent and equipment costs. Some of those contractors won't make it through this and, if they do, because unemployment premiums are based on claims (in part), those who have laid off their people will experience higher costs for the next 3-5 years if they survive.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 9:58 am
  #198  
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Originally Posted by mauve
Do we know that other agencies aren't seeing the same increasing absenteeism and employee loss as TSA?

Aside from the Post Office, the only Federal employees I interact with frequently are TSOs. I wouldn't notice quickly if Correctional Officers or ATF Special Agents started calling in sick.
Without getting specific I do know of some workers within one impacted agency and to my knowledge they are not calling out sick like TSA workers are. They might have a bit better pay structure but not significantly more.

If I worked for TSA I'd still try the lawsuit angle and see if a court would agree that no pay means no work obligation. AT least that would remove the legal jeopardy issue.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:03 am
  #199  
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That’s already been tried, and it failed.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:04 am
  #200  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Without getting specific I do know of some workers within one impacted agency and to my knowledge they are not calling out sick like TSA workers are. They might have a bit better pay structure but not significantly more.

If I worked for TSA I'd still try the lawsuit angle and see if a court would agree that no pay means no work obligation. AT least that would remove the legal jeopardy issue.
Been tried. Did not work. At least the judge declined to issue a TRO, which is all that matters.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:18 am
  #201  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
There are also lots of news stories about the Secret Service and FBI being hit by the shutdown. But their absentee rates aren’t at 8%. But they also get paid more than the average TSA employee and are more likely to have deeper family financial means to tap than lower wage and lower net worth TSA employees.
The difference in retirement benefits also explains why federal law enforcement officers (LEOs) are sticking around - federal LEOs can retire at age 50 with 20 years of service or at any age with 25 years of covered service
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:20 am
  #202  
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Originally Posted by WillCAD
It takes a lot longer for a shutdown to hit a contractor, because they invoice at longer intervals than the federal bi-monthly pay cycle. But with the shutdown now longer than thirty days, many contractors have missed a paycheck as well, so I wonder if some of them will begin work actions as well.

But I'm not surprised that TSOs are among the first to suffer increased sick-outage. Much as we complain about whether they're actually earning their pay, it cannot be denied that they don't make much money, and missing half a month's pay hurts lower-paid workers much more than it does higher-paid workers.
I have seen no evidence that the TSOs calling in sick are only or mostly very lowly paid, ie, LTSOs and STSOs and BDOs, the higher paid ranks, are showing up.

There's no discussion of the fact that many lower-paid folks are one-half of a dual-income household and they are not the primary wage-earner.

It's also possible to be earning six figures and still be unable to deal with a delayed paycheck. We hear about 'big numbers' of TSOs quitting, but reports are conspicuously silent on the actual number. I suspect that's because it's 99% talk and few are actually leaving.

The IRS is calling back several thousand workers - delayed paychecks - to process income tax returns. I haven't heard the level of threats and complaints from the IRS folks that seem to be coming from the airports. For what it's worth, I just googled pay scales for TSA, the IRS and the Coast Guard (under the same umbrella as TSA). The lower end of the payscale is pretty much the same for all three, so why aren't the IRS and Coast Guard people threatening to quit and whining? Are they non-union? Is that the difference?

Last edited by chollie; Jan 21, 2019 at 10:45 am
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:33 am
  #203  
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IRS employees are complaining. The media just hasn’t started telling you
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:45 am
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Orange County Commuter
IRS employees are complaining. The media just hasn’t started telling you
TSA employees were complaining loudly before they had even missed a check.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 10:48 am
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Often1
TSA is now experiencing an increase in resignations. Given low pay and lack of serious career potential, in a locale where there is decent work available, it is just as easy to jump ship to a better-paying job. Many Officers are military veterans and do not have the benefit of long-term employment to build up a rainy day fund.

FBI agents and others are much better paid and are less likely to find comparable work and less likely to give up a solid law enforcement retirement benefit.

Many contractors were issued stop work orders on the date of the shut down, so it is not a matter of when they bill; they were simply prohibited from incurring the obligation. Their employees, the people who are referred to as "contractors" but who are really employees of a contractor are in trouble because they are highly unlikely to ever be paid.

Contractors also have to pay their people to work, if authorized. Only the federal government can both require an individual to work and then not pay him. Contractors also have other payments they cannot escape, e.g. rent and equipment costs. Some of those contractors won't make it through this and, if they do, because unemployment premiums are based on claims (in part), those who have laid off their people will experience higher costs for the next 3-5 years if they survive.
Um...

When you work for a private company, if you show up and work, they MUST pay you. End of story, that's the law.

If a company is under contract to the fed, and they are not issued a stop work order during the shutdown, they are contractually obligated to continue working. Their invoices will not be paid until the shutdown ends, but they WILL be paid for any hours worked, shutdown or not.

If the company has been issued a stop work order during a shutdown, then they cannot allow their employees to work on the federal project, and they have two choices - furlough the employee, or put them on another project for the duration of the stop work order.

So, the only private sector employees who will not be paid at all during the shutdown are those who a) work for a company that was issued a stop work order, AND b) work for a company that didn't keep them working on other projects during the shutdown (such as companies who foolishly built their entire customer base on a single client).
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 11:39 am
  #206  
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News flash: the TSA sickout has now reached ten percent of the workforce.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ck/2636495002/

I must admit, when we first heard of this issue a week ago, I scoffed. Only a slight uptick in the number of sick calls, I thought. No big deal, I thought.

But when your sick outage reaches ten percent of the workforce, multiple airports closing checkpoints due to short staffing, and the end of the shutdown is nowhere in sight, I must admit, I was wrong - this is significant.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 11:41 am
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Orange County Commuter
IRS employees are complaining. The media just hasn’t started telling you
Are you sure about that?

The Fresno Bee ran an extensive article about the IRS agents being hurt by the shutdown. Fresno is home to the largest IRS processing center in the country.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 12:24 pm
  #208  
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Originally Posted by WillCAD
News flash: the TSA sickout has now reached ten percent of the workforce.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ck/2636495002/

I must admit, when we first heard of this issue a week ago, I scoffed. Only a slight uptick in the number of sick calls, I thought. No big deal, I thought.

But when your sick outage reaches ten percent of the workforce, multiple airports closing checkpoints due to short staffing, and the end of the shutdown is nowhere in sight, I must admit, I was wrong - this is significant.
I'd like to see the internal data, because I think TSA HQ is still playing fast and loose with the numbers.

The 'average' wait time is 30 minutes? That's pretty misleading, considering it is very very rare for small commuter airports (a few flights a day) to ever experience a long wait. Those figures should not be averaged in with the numbers from airports like ATL that are experiencing much longer wait times.

It simply isn't fair to the pax (or TSOs or airline employees) to post misleading statements about wait times. There is no reason for someone to assume they have to show up at a puddle-jumper airport three hours early. There is every reason to think three hours will be needed at ATL. Why put pax, airline employees and TSOs through unnecessary stress? Is it just because TSA bonuses are based on misleading numbers?

I don't know if it was ever fixed, but TSA had a wait time tool at one time. Someone realized that it only went to 30 minutes, the maximum 'acceptable' wait time. It wasn't possible to feed it a longer wait time.

Originally Posted by jamesinclair
Are you sure about that?

The Fresno Bee ran an extensive article about the IRS agents being hurt by the shutdown. Fresno is home to the largest IRS processing center in the country.
Have you tipped your IRS agent? Or contributed to a local food bank on their behalf?

I'm less worried about a screener missing a bottle of water than I am about getting a delayed tax refund.

Last edited by TWA884; Jan 21, 2019 at 2:48 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts by the same member; please use the multi-quote function. Thank you.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 4:02 pm
  #209  
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Originally Posted by chollie
I have seen no evidence that the TSOs calling in sick are only or mostly very lowly paid, ie, LTSOs and STSOs and BDOs, the higher paid ranks, are showing up.

There's no discussion of the fact that many lower-paid folks are one-half of a dual-income household and they are not the primary wage-earner.

It's also possible to be earning six figures and still be unable to deal with a delayed paycheck. We hear about 'big numbers' of TSOs quitting, but reports are conspicuously silent on the actual number. I suspect that's because it's 99% talk and few are actually leaving.

The IRS is calling back several thousand workers - delayed paychecks - to process income tax returns. I haven't heard the level of threats and complaints from the IRS folks that seem to be coming from the airports. For what it's worth, I just googled pay scales for TSA, the IRS and the Coast Guard (under the same umbrella as TSA). The lower end of the payscale is pretty much the same for all three, so why aren't the IRS and Coast Guard people threatening to quit and whining? Are they non-union? Is that the difference?
Lower paid Americans, especially male ones, tend to be less likely to have stable marital relationships and tend to be more likely to have lower paid spouses even when in stable marital relationships. The TSA workforce is at or near the bottom of the barrel in the federal government workforce so even the ones in ordinarily dual-income households are probably struggling financially in ways that aren’t applicable to most of the FT crowd.
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Old Jan 21, 2019 | 5:01 pm
  #210  
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Originally Posted by WillCAD
Um...

When you work for a private company, if you show up and work, they MUST pay you. End of story, that's the law.

If a company is under contract to the fed, and they are not issued a stop work order during the shutdown, they are contractually obligated to continue working. Their invoices will not be paid until the shutdown ends, but they WILL be paid for any hours worked, shutdown or not.

If the company has been issued a stop work order during a shutdown, then they cannot allow their employees to work on the federal project, and they have two choices - furlough the employee, or put them on another project for the duration of the stop work order.

So, the only private sector employees who will not be paid at all during the shutdown are those who a) work for a company that was issued a stop work order, AND b) work for a company that didn't keep them working on other projects during the shutdown (such as companies who foolishly built their entire customer base on a single client).
Stop work orders have been issued to numerous major contractors, leaving many important functions at agencies such as EPA dormant.

The problem is that while those functions are critical and the failure to monitor has long-term negative impact on all of us, TSA is a front-line operation which is also front-line heavy.

It isn't worth arguing because the fact remains that nothing has or will be done about the people who call in sick and nothing can be done to people who have simply left (some "ghosting" by not even calling in to say they are done.
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