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Originally Posted by TheRoadie
(Post 21949488)
..YOU PEOPLE?!? What kind of other knee-jerk stereotyping do you commit on a daily basis? Because it's unconstitutional, adds nothing to security, it's an inconsistent process that isn't applied at every TDC position around the country, and it's a silly-buggers game. Enough reasons? And your knowledge of anybody's other activities is derived from what proof? It's irrelevant to this specific discussion anyway.Nonsense. We play passive aggressive games right back at them in other ways. I suppose you think demanding they change their gloves because it's our right is a useless gesture as well, with no basis in disease control?You obviously believe in the "all terrorists are dumb as rocks" theory.Yet you feel compelled to troll us? Hmmmm. But when they're confiscated and taken out of our vicinity, our freedom of movement has just been taken away. By a government agent with ZERO POWERS OF DETENTION! These were not taken away by a law enforcement officer - the documents were taken without cause by someone who has no legal authority to restrain you - INTO THE SECURE side where you WILL be met by an LEO if you intrude to follow your documents. Taking away someone's travel documents is an illegal form of detention, it can be argued.
But if you're all right with that, carry on and parrot your name if it makes you feel safer. For the rest of us, your bleating is ignorable. Your freedom of movement hasn't been taken away by someone walking 20m away with your passport, which also isn't what OP claimed. He claimed they stole his passport which in my jurisdiction would require intent to keep. Since a police officer can take your driver's license and go back to his car I'm going to assume this is okay, even if I dislike it. That doesn't mean the TSA was right, it means it wasn't theft. And I've never been asked my name by a TSA employee. I've been asked many things (mostly where I'm from or where I'm going) but never my name.
Originally Posted by Caradoc
(Post 21949751)
Does "you people" equate to "people who are not TSA employees, shills, or quislings?" If so, I'll wear that label with pride.
Originally Posted by Spiff
(Post 21949859)
Because the name game is frigging unnecessary. No one should even have to show an ID to a government actor to fly as a passenger. Asking questions beyond "Papieren, bitte!" is even more disgusting and un-American than the ID demand itself.
It is definitely NOT reasonable. What's pathetic is your misunderstanding that one's ID can be confiscated by a non-law-enforcement actor who isn't even an actor for the state that issued that ID. :td: :td: |
Originally Posted by theddo
(Post 21953289)
Of course it's a silly game. The TSA is a silly game. That's still no reason to pick fights with random TSA employees simply because you can. Change something, make something happen or do anything constructive. This isn't about complaining or changing the TSA this is about wanting to piss people off. Simply because you have the right to do something (which the OP does have) doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.
Your freedom of movement hasn't been taken away by someone walking 20m away with your passport, which also isn't what OP claimed. He claimed they stole his passport which in my jurisdiction would require intent to keep. Since a police officer can take your driver's license and go back to his car I'm going to assume this is okay, even if I dislike it. That doesn't mean the TSA was right, it means it wasn't theft. And I've never been asked my name by a TSA employee. I've been asked many things (mostly where I'm from or where I'm going) but never my name. You people in this context was a term for those members of FT who regularly pick fights with TSA employees who follow their orders instead of actually doing something to change the fundamental structures of the TSA by calling their representatives and trying to disband it. It most certainly is a reasonable request, as is "where will you be staying while you are here?" and many other simple questions that shows if your calm and relaxed (as most people are) or not. Your state of mind is relevant during a security check. What was confiscated? They walked away with it with full intent to return it. May or may not be the right thing to do (I know I wouldn't want them to) but confiscate and theft? "You people" as a term has numerous issues. I think you already know what they are. For a TSA clerk to engage a person in an interrogation exceeds their mandate. Asking for names is a waste of my time and theirs. Going beyond that such as asking where one is staying is not all right and is none of their fricking business. Those questions have nothing to do with the screening for WEI which is all TSA is authorized to do. By not cooperating we make it just a little more difficult to move the sticks for this agency. If that requires making a stand at the TDC podium then so be it. Roll over for TSA if you like but don't come complaining in a few years when things such as this have advanced to much more onerous challenges to enforce your right to travel. |
Originally Posted by theddo
(Post 21953289)
And I've never been asked my name by a TSA employee. I've been asked many things (mostly where I'm from or where I'm going) but never my name. As you can see, I have my name here and don't mind the "name game" for myself, but I do respect others who may not want to state their names. Since you and I are in agreement about the silliness of not answering our real name during the "name game," please just write your real name here for all of us to see. How about it? |
Originally Posted by theddo
(Post 21953289)
It most certainly is a reasonable request, as is "where will you be staying while you are here?" and many other simple questions that shows if your calm and relaxed (as most people are) or not. Your state of mind is relevant during a security check.
Originally Posted by theddo
(Post 21953289)
What was confiscated? They walked away with it with full intent to return it. May or may not be the right thing to do (I know I wouldn't want them to) but confiscate and theft?
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The following sentence appears in your passport:
This passort is the property of the United States (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 51.9). It must be surrendered upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government. Clearly, the TSA and its employees are representatives of the United States Government and, when acting in that capacity, are authorized to take your passport for the limited and reasonable amount of time required for the purpose of identifying you to their satisfaction. Hence, there was no theft of your property. Had there been a theft (which would have required them taking the passport illegally) it would have been theft of government property. In reporting to the police that your property was stolen, you were guilty of making a false report and are fortunate that the police did not take it or you seriously enough to press charges against you. |
Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 21953464)
This passort is the property of the United States (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 51.9). It must be surrendered upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government.
Clearly, the TSA and its employees are representatives of the United States Government and, when acting in that capacity, are authorized to take your passport for the limited and reasonable amount of time required for the purpose of identifying you to their satisfaction. Of course, the entire notion of a "TDC" is theatre anyway when we're talking about "security." |
Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 21953464)
This passort is the property of the United States (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 51.9). It must be surrendered upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government.
Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 21953464)
Clearly, the TSA and its employees are representatives of the United States Government and, when acting in that capacity, are authorized to take your passport for the limited and reasonable amount of time required for the purpose of identifying you to their satisfaction.
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Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 21953464)
The following sentence appears in your passport:
This passort is the property of the United States (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 51.9). It must be surrendered upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government. Clearly, the TSA and its employees are representatives of the United States Government and, when acting in that capacity, are authorized to take your passport for the limited and reasonable amount of time required for the purpose of identifying you to their satisfaction. Hence, there was no theft of your property. Had there been a theft (which would have required them taking the passport illegally) it would have been theft of government property. In reporting to the police that your property was stolen, you were guilty of making a false report and are fortunate that the police did not take it or you seriously enough to press charges against you. Since you are quoting chapter and verse tell us who an "authorized representative of the United States government" is in this situation. And please include the cite. |
All soon to be solved when TSA moves to the newish 3-tier system:
1. 85% of pax will receive roughly what is now pre-check. 2. Almost all of the remainder will receive what is now the standard non pre-check. 3. A very small % will receive what is now "SSSS". Presume that those who don't know their name and the like will simply go through Tier 3screening because it's harder to reliably identify them. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 21953722)
All soon to be solved when TSA moves to the newish 3-tier system:
1. 85% of pax will receive roughly what is now pre-check. 2. Almost all of the remainder will receive what is now the standard non pre-check. 3. A very small % will receive what is now "SSSS". Presume that those who don't know their name and the like will simply go through Tier 3screening because it's harder to reliably identify them. Reliable identification of passengers doesn't require an ability or willingness of passengers to say their name or even know their name. Identifying passengers is not needed to reliably interdict contraband WEIs at screening checkpoints and such efforts of identifying passengers actually diverts resources from WEI interdiction and increase the risk of security screening failure to interdict contraband WEIs. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 21953873)
Identifying passengers is not needed to reliably interdict contraband WEIs at screening checkpoints and such efforts of identifying passengers actually diverts resources from WEI interdiction and increase the risk of security screening failure to interdict contraband WEIs.
Then I realized it doesn't. It's just a punitive action they'll take against anyone who chooses not to play their stupid games. |
Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 21953464)
The following sentence appears in your passport:
This passort is the property of the United States (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 51.9). It must be surrendered upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government. Clearly, the TSA and its employees are representatives of the United States Government and, when acting in that capacity, are authorized to take your passport for the limited and reasonable amount of time required for the purpose of identifying you to their satisfaction. Hence, there was no theft of your property. Had there been a theft (which would have required them taking the passport illegally) it would have been theft of government property. In reporting to the police that your property was stolen, you were guilty of making a false report and are fortunate that the police did not take it or you seriously enough to press charges against you. Not all US passports used at TSA screening checkpoints are the current property of the US. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 21954004)
US Government employees are capable of stealing government property.
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 21954004)
Most USG employees are not authorized to deprive a US citizen of a US passport.
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 21954004)
Not all US passports used at TSA screening checkpoints are the current property of the US. |
Originally Posted by theddo
(Post 21953289)
This isn't about complaining or changing the TSA this is about wanting to piss people off. Simply because you have the right to do something (which the OP does have) doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.
Gen Colin Powell: A Leadership Primer, from slide #2: Lesson 1 "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off." Good leadership involves responsibility to the welfare of the group, which means that some people will get angry at your actions and decisions. It's inevitable, if you're honorable. Trying to get everyone to like you is a sign of mediocrity: you'll avoid the tough decisions, you'll avoid confronting the people who need to be confronted, and you'll avoid offering differential rewards based on differential performance because some people might get upset. Ironically, by procrastinating on the difficult choices, by trying not to get anyone mad, and by treating everyone equally "nicely" regardless of their contributions, you'll simply ensure that the only people you'll wind up angering are the most creative and productive people in the organization. |
Originally Posted by FlyingUnderTheRadar
(Post 21951171)
The last time I had to play the name game I told the TDC that I would not say my name out loud but would be happy to whisper it in his ear. That got me a three .
Good one! |
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