Chat Down at DTW
Dec 6, 2011, 4:30 pm
#31
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 174
How does TSA respond at these chatdowns if you answer every one of their questions with a question like:
why do you want to know?
why is this relevant?
what difference does it make?
why are you asking me these questions?
If you just keep answering with more questions how long will they try to keep it up?
why do you want to know?
why is this relevant?
what difference does it make?
why are you asking me these questions?
If you just keep answering with more questions how long will they try to keep it up?
Dec 6, 2011, 5:05 pm
#32
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Marriott or Hilton hot tub with a big drink <glub> Beverage: To-Go Bag™ DYKWIA: SSSS /rolleyes ☈ Date Night: Costco
Programs: Sea Shell Lounge Platinum, TSA Pre✓ Refusnik Diamond, PWP Gold, FT subset of the subset
Posts: 12,509
Clerk: " What is the purpose of your travel"
"How many days will you be in XXX"
"who do you work for?"
"Let me see your itenarary"
"Let me see your hotel confirmation"
"let me see your employee id"
"How many long have you been working for XXX"
"Which school did you graduate from?"
"How many days will you be in XXX"
"who do you work for?"
"Let me see your itenarary"
"Let me see your hotel confirmation"
"let me see your employee id"
"How many long have you been working for XXX"
"Which school did you graduate from?"
The little thing that Rolando Negrin was teased about?
Dec 6, 2011, 5:47 pm
#34
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,145
I really think the answer to these creepy and intrusive questions should be something along the lines of a chilly "Do we know when another?" or "I'm sorry, but I find your line of personal questioning uncomfortable and overly intrusive." With so many of this agency's employees crossing behavioral boundaries both on and off the job, who's to know whether they are screening or seducing. Close it down politely and firmly.
Dec 6, 2011, 7:30 pm
#35
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
I really think the answer to these creepy and intrusive questions should be something along the lines of a chilly "Do we know when another?" or "I'm sorry, but I find your line of personal questioning uncomfortable and overly intrusive." With so many of this agency's employees crossing behavioral boundaries both on and off the job, who's to know whether they are screening or seducing. Close it down politely and firmly.
Dec 6, 2011, 7:42 pm
#36
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
We had a Swiss made press with the following "German" sign posted prominently:
Achtung!
Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.
Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.
Dec 6, 2011, 7:48 pm
#37
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Delta Diamond Medallion 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, National Car Executive Elite
Posts: 550
Well said, InkUnderNails! I tip my hat to you.
Dec 6, 2011, 8:35 pm
#38
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 175
We had a Swiss made press with the following "German" sign posted prominently:
Quote:
Achtung!
Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.
Isn't this the contents of the operators manual for the Rapescan? You just posted SSI to a BBS!
Quote:
Achtung!
Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.
Isn't this the contents of the operators manual for the Rapescan? You just posted SSI to a BBS!
Dec 6, 2011, 9:42 pm
#39
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Sunshine State
Programs: Deltaworst Peon Level, TSA "Layer 21 Club", NW WP RIP
Posts: 11,370
"Where are you staying?"
"I'm curious, does your training say to interpret the answer "Hilton" as a lodging chain, a reality TV star, Liz Taylor's first husband, a weapon, an explosive, an incindiary, or a reason for a retaliatory secondary?"
Dec 6, 2011, 10:03 pm
#40
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: WAS
Programs: AMEX Platinum, Global Entry, Priority Pass, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,594
Even if you believe this pilot program is appropriate, and that the science behind the behavior detection is valid, you cannot justify the TSA asking the view documents. Behavior detection occurs when you respond to a question, not when the TSA reads over a confirmation.
Dec 6, 2011, 10:35 pm
#41
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 821
Even if you believe this pilot program is appropriate, and that the science behind the behavior detection is valid, you cannot justify the TSA asking the view documents. Behavior detection occurs when you respond to a question, not when the TSA reads over a confirmation.
(The SPOT-ters were not on duty yesterday morning at BOS, when I would have had my first opportunity to try this out.)
Dec 6, 2011, 10:40 pm
#42
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 821
I flew out of DTW today for a business trip. One big mistake I made was I arrived a little later at the airport than I should have so I had to play along with the Behavior detection mumbo jumbo.
Clerk: " What is the purpose of your travel"
"How many days will you be in XXX"
"who do you work for?"
"Let me see your itenarary"
"Let me see your hotel confirmation"
"let me see your employee id"
"How many long have you been working for XXX"
"Which school did you graduate from?"
At this point, I refused to pull out my employee id and told her that it was buried deep inside my carry-on. This lady was wearing a jacket that said "TSA Inspector" by the way. She insisted and I stood my ground as I didn't want to dig all the stuff from my carry-ons. She asked for my business card instead and let me on my way.
This interrogation left a very bitter taste in my mouth as it is none of the TSA's God damned business which school I attended and what sort of work history I have.
On my next trip in January, I'm going to arrive very early and do a complete opt-out of this chatdown, and tell them to go screw themselves.
Clerk: " What is the purpose of your travel"
"How many days will you be in XXX"
"who do you work for?"
"Let me see your itenarary"
"Let me see your hotel confirmation"
"let me see your employee id"
"How many long have you been working for XXX"
"Which school did you graduate from?"
At this point, I refused to pull out my employee id and told her that it was buried deep inside my carry-on. This lady was wearing a jacket that said "TSA Inspector" by the way. She insisted and I stood my ground as I didn't want to dig all the stuff from my carry-ons. She asked for my business card instead and let me on my way.
This interrogation left a very bitter taste in my mouth as it is none of the TSA's God damned business which school I attended and what sort of work history I have.
On my next trip in January, I'm going to arrive very early and do a complete opt-out of this chatdown, and tell them to go screw themselves.
>> "What is the purpose of your travel"
"What is the description of your job, standing next to the guy who already checked my ID and boarding pass?"
>> "How many days will you be in XXX"
"How many hours have you been standing here beside the TDC?"
>> "who do you work for?"
"Who's the name of your supervisor?"
>> "Let me see your itenarary"
"Let me see your most recent pay stub."
>> "Let me see your hotel confirmation"
"Let me see your most recent rent or mortgage payment."
>> "let me see your employee id"
"Let me see your own TSA ID."
>> "How many long have you been working for XXX"
"How many days have you had this job standing beside the TDC?"
>> "Which school did you graduate from?"
"Which school did you graduate from?"
Dec 6, 2011, 10:57 pm
#43
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: none
Posts: 1,669
AM I WRONG HERE?
1. There is a constitutional difference between an "administrative" search and a "criminal" search.
2. The government may do an administrative search for the purpose of ensuring that no weapons, explosives, or incendiaries get onto a plane. An administrative search does NOT need a warrant or probable cause. They may not use an administrative search as an excuse to look for evidence of a a crime.
3. A criminal search is for the purpose of obtaining criminal evidence. Only a LEO can do a criminal search, and only under specified conditions (suspicion of crime, with a proper warrant or probable cause.)
4. If the government conducts a legitimate administrative search. and happens to find criminal evidence/contraband, they have to employ a LEO to seize it.
Perhaps oversimplified a bit, but am I wrong?
1. There is a constitutional difference between an "administrative" search and a "criminal" search.
2. The government may do an administrative search for the purpose of ensuring that no weapons, explosives, or incendiaries get onto a plane. An administrative search does NOT need a warrant or probable cause. They may not use an administrative search as an excuse to look for evidence of a a crime.
3. A criminal search is for the purpose of obtaining criminal evidence. Only a LEO can do a criminal search, and only under specified conditions (suspicion of crime, with a proper warrant or probable cause.)
4. If the government conducts a legitimate administrative search. and happens to find criminal evidence/contraband, they have to employ a LEO to seize it.
Perhaps oversimplified a bit, but am I wrong?
Dec 6, 2011, 11:39 pm
#44
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,795
You're not wrong, exactly, just a few years out of date. 
Here's the way it goes in 2011:
1. There is a constitutional difference between an "administrative" search and a "criminal" search. Except that Congress said to TSA "make sure 9/11 doesn't happen again, we don't care how" and walked away. Also, the Constitution is apparently DOA.
2. The government may do an administrative search for the purpose of ensuring that no weapons, explosives, or incendiaries get onto a plane. An administrative search does NOT need a warrant or probable cause. They may not use an administrative search as an excuse to look for evidence of a a crime. Except that the TSA needs to keep assuring Congress and the public that they're doing something useful. And the only successes TSA has achieved (or is statistically likely to achieve) are finding drugs, fake ids, people with outstanding warrants and illegal immigrants. So searching for evidence of a crime is necessary.
3. A criminal search is for the purpose of obtaining criminal evidence. Only a LEO can do a criminal search, and only under specified conditions (suspicion of crime, with a proper warrant or probable cause.) See above. They can't let that pesky Constitution get in the way of finding fodder for PV.
4. If the government conducts a legitimate administrative search. and happens to find criminal evidence/contraband, they have to employ a LEO to seize it. Depends on what you mean by "seize". TSA Joe is standing on the other side of the x-ray belt holding your backpack in one hand and a baggie of drugs in the other; he's not about to hand it back to you. But yeah, they have to find a real LEO to come arrest you and take the evidence to the police station. And it appears that in many airports, the local LEO is happy to oblige. Why wouldn't they be? They get credit for the arrest without having to do all that tiresome investigation.
Seriously, you're right but nobody, from Congress and POTUS down, cares.
Here's the way it goes in 2011:1. There is a constitutional difference between an "administrative" search and a "criminal" search. Except that Congress said to TSA "make sure 9/11 doesn't happen again, we don't care how" and walked away. Also, the Constitution is apparently DOA.
2. The government may do an administrative search for the purpose of ensuring that no weapons, explosives, or incendiaries get onto a plane. An administrative search does NOT need a warrant or probable cause. They may not use an administrative search as an excuse to look for evidence of a a crime. Except that the TSA needs to keep assuring Congress and the public that they're doing something useful. And the only successes TSA has achieved (or is statistically likely to achieve) are finding drugs, fake ids, people with outstanding warrants and illegal immigrants. So searching for evidence of a crime is necessary.
3. A criminal search is for the purpose of obtaining criminal evidence. Only a LEO can do a criminal search, and only under specified conditions (suspicion of crime, with a proper warrant or probable cause.) See above. They can't let that pesky Constitution get in the way of finding fodder for PV.
4. If the government conducts a legitimate administrative search. and happens to find criminal evidence/contraband, they have to employ a LEO to seize it. Depends on what you mean by "seize". TSA Joe is standing on the other side of the x-ray belt holding your backpack in one hand and a baggie of drugs in the other; he's not about to hand it back to you. But yeah, they have to find a real LEO to come arrest you and take the evidence to the police station. And it appears that in many airports, the local LEO is happy to oblige. Why wouldn't they be? They get credit for the arrest without having to do all that tiresome investigation.
Seriously, you're right but nobody, from Congress and POTUS down, cares.