Chat Down at DTW
Dec 6, 2011, 5:26 am
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 174
The cost is down on my list of complaints, way down.
The PIPI that is the center of discussion in this thread is just the newest infringement added to a long list.
We now have to submit our names and personal information to be compared to multiple lists of dubious creation to allow us to enter the process without creating additional screening requirements. The source of this information is unknown and secret. The reason we may be on the list, if we are, is unknown and secret. The advanced screening to which we may be subject is unknown and secret.
We must present a valid ID with our boarding papers, an exercise of limited security value but necessary anyway.
At the discretion of a government actor, we can be selected to undergo a virtual scan of or nude body with the option of selection a law enforcement style physical search instead. This is done without any probable cause or suspicion except for the fact that we wish to get on airplane and fly somewhere.
We are told our personal papers can be searched. We are told that they may record our information from documents and credit cards. We may be asked why we are carrying cash and valuables. We have to specially declare and justify medications. People with medical implants, prostheses, medical devices must justify their existence. People requiring wheelchairs and assist devices are required to prove that they are not using these devices to hide contraband often in painful and embarrassing procedures.
Anomalies detected in any of these processes may lead to further more intrusive searches or our denial of travel. Objections to the process can lead to our personal information being collected and added to some list that is both secret in is purpose and reason. We can be fined for interfering with the process, a description of said offense being secret.
We may be further subjected to additional searches and inspections of or bodies, belongings, liquids and matches of our papers and ID yet again, before we can board the plane.
Most of this is not authorized specifically by any properly created regulation or public law except that that may be granted by an unlimited authority to "do whatever needs to be done, we will justify it later" attitude. (The previous quote is a rhetorical creation for descriptive effect of the process and is not an actual quote, so please do not accuse me of making up quotes as it was rhetorical.) Attempts to determine the actual process is met with the reply that it is secret and we can not be told, but be assured we must comply with this secret process and its secret penalties.
We are told that we can not lawfully photograph this process, even when we can, and may be threatened with arrest for attempting to do so.
All of this is on top of the reasonable processes instituted to detect WEI such as bag xray and searches, ETD, WTMD and the now defunct HHMD.
The cost is a problem, without a doubt. Yet on my list of complaints, it is way down the list.
The PIPI that is the center of discussion in this thread is just the newest infringement added to a long list.
We now have to submit our names and personal information to be compared to multiple lists of dubious creation to allow us to enter the process without creating additional screening requirements. The source of this information is unknown and secret. The reason we may be on the list, if we are, is unknown and secret. The advanced screening to which we may be subject is unknown and secret.
We must present a valid ID with our boarding papers, an exercise of limited security value but necessary anyway.
At the discretion of a government actor, we can be selected to undergo a virtual scan of or nude body with the option of selection a law enforcement style physical search instead. This is done without any probable cause or suspicion except for the fact that we wish to get on airplane and fly somewhere.
We are told our personal papers can be searched. We are told that they may record our information from documents and credit cards. We may be asked why we are carrying cash and valuables. We have to specially declare and justify medications. People with medical implants, prostheses, medical devices must justify their existence. People requiring wheelchairs and assist devices are required to prove that they are not using these devices to hide contraband often in painful and embarrassing procedures.
Anomalies detected in any of these processes may lead to further more intrusive searches or our denial of travel. Objections to the process can lead to our personal information being collected and added to some list that is both secret in is purpose and reason. We can be fined for interfering with the process, a description of said offense being secret.
We may be further subjected to additional searches and inspections of or bodies, belongings, liquids and matches of our papers and ID yet again, before we can board the plane.
Most of this is not authorized specifically by any properly created regulation or public law except that that may be granted by an unlimited authority to "do whatever needs to be done, we will justify it later" attitude. (The previous quote is a rhetorical creation for descriptive effect of the process and is not an actual quote, so please do not accuse me of making up quotes as it was rhetorical.) Attempts to determine the actual process is met with the reply that it is secret and we can not be told, but be assured we must comply with this secret process and its secret penalties.
We are told that we can not lawfully photograph this process, even when we can, and may be threatened with arrest for attempting to do so.
All of this is on top of the reasonable processes instituted to detect WEI such as bag xray and searches, ETD, WTMD and the now defunct HHMD.
The cost is a problem, without a doubt. Yet on my list of complaints, it is way down the list.
Dec 6, 2011, 5:32 am
#17
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: boca raton, florida
Posts: 621
I did this at Dallas (DAL) mid-November, did it again on Friday at Fort Lauderdale (FLL) checkpoint charlie (quite appropriate behavior for that reason) with lead screener (designated psychic reader). He seemed quite disappointed that he could not see what my micro-facial expressions were.
The beauty of this whole encounter is that if you do not answer the questions you get sent to secondary, which is what I was going thru anyway because I opted out.
I enjoyed it, more so than the screener it seems.
Last edited by essxjay; Dec 6, 2011 at 1:21 pm Reason: names redacted
Dec 6, 2011, 6:38 am
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 174
"In your administrative search for weapons, explosives or incendiaries, am I required to answer that question?"
I did this at Dallas (DAL) mid-November, did it again on Friday at Fort Lauderdale (FLL) checkpoint charlie (quite appropriate behavior for that reason) with lead screener (designated psychic reader). He seemed quite disappointed that he could not see what my micro-facial expressions were.
The beauty of this whole encounter is that if you do not answer the questions you get sent to secondary, which is what I was going thru anyway because I opted out.
I enjoyed it, more so than the screener it seems.
I did this at Dallas (DAL) mid-November, did it again on Friday at Fort Lauderdale (FLL) checkpoint charlie (quite appropriate behavior for that reason) with lead screener (designated psychic reader). He seemed quite disappointed that he could not see what my micro-facial expressions were.
The beauty of this whole encounter is that if you do not answer the questions you get sent to secondary, which is what I was going thru anyway because I opted out.
I enjoyed it, more so than the screener it seems.
Last edited by essxjay; Dec 6, 2011 at 1:22 pm Reason: edits to quoted post
Dec 6, 2011, 6:39 am
#19
Join Date: Jan 2011
Programs: Sky Miles, Star Alliance, Marriott
Posts: 328
Dec 6, 2011, 7:49 am
#20
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Programs: SW Rapid Rewards, Hilton Honors, Marriott, Avis First
Posts: 4,831
Gee, and the DTW TSOs wonder why we despise them so.
Dec 6, 2011, 8:22 am
#22
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,425
We now have to submit our names and personal information ...
We must present a valid ID with our boarding papers, an exercise of limited security value but necessary anyway...
At the discretion of a government actor, we can be selected to undergo a virtual scan of or nude body with the option of selection a law enforcement style physical search instead.....
We are told our personal papers can be searched.
We are told that they may record our information from documents and credit cards.
.... People with medical implants, prostheses, medical devices must justify their existence. People requiring wheelchairs and assist devices are required to prove that they are not using these devices to hide contraband ...
....
We may be further subjected to additional searches and inspections of or bodies, belongings, liquids and matches of our papers and ID yet again, before we can board the plane.
Most of this is not authorized specifically by any properly created regulation or public law except that that may be granted by an unlimited authority to "do whatever needs to be done
You aren't being rhetorical. This is exactly what the federal court said in the EPIC lawsuit because it is explicitly stated in the act passed by congress. The congress, the president, and the supreme court, all three branches of the federal government, granted TSA a blank check to behave in an Arbitrary and Capricious manner. Arbitrary and capricious conduct on the part of government is illegal on its face, yet the federals have given the TSA this mode of operation. They granted powers they don't have themselves.
This is nothing but contempt for law, and rule by brute force. And that is why in the Senate defense authorization bill passed last week the senate rescinded the prohibition against using the US military on the citizens in the US. They intend to rule by force.
Dec 6, 2011, 8:33 am
#23
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,974
You aren't being rhetorical. This is exactly what the federal court said in the EPIC lawsuit because it is explicitly stated in the act passed by congress. The congress, the president, and the supreme court, all three branches of the federal government, granted TSA a blank check to behave in an Arbitrary and Capricious manner. Arbitrary and capricious conduct on the part of government is illegal on its face, yet the federals have given the TSA this mode of operation. They granted powers they don't have themselves.
This is nothing but contempt for law, and rule by brute force. And that is why in the Senate defense authorization bill passed last week the senate rescinded the prohibition against using the US military on the citizens in the US. They intend to rule by force.
This is nothing but contempt for law, and rule by brute force. And that is why in the Senate defense authorization bill passed last week the senate rescinded the prohibition against using the US military on the citizens in the US. They intend to rule by force.
This is the "slippery slope" many of us have been harping on about for the last decade. We're too far down it now; I can't think of any scenario by which this Constitutional disaster can be halted, let alone reversed. If it's true that a nation gets the governance it deserves then there's really nothing to complain about, now is there?
The second American Revolution isn't going to be pretty.
Dec 6, 2011, 8:40 am
#24
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: DTW
Programs: DL 0.22 MM, AA 0.34 MM, PC Plat Amb, Hertz #1 GC 5*
Posts: 7,511
No chat-up or chat-down, DTW DL, lower checkpoint, below the upper-floor, by the area to check baggage. Was looking forward to it, too...
Coming back from LAX, someone two people in front of me go nothing more then "what's your name" (verbatum). Next person, and myself, got nothing.
Coming back from LAX, someone two people in front of me go nothing more then "what's your name" (verbatum). Next person, and myself, got nothing.
Dec 6, 2011, 10:37 am
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 174
bolding mine..
You aren't being rhetorical. This is exactly what the federal court said in the EPIC lawsuit because it is explicitly stated in the act passed by congress. The congress, the president, and the supreme court, all three branches of the federal government, granted TSA a blank check to behave in an Arbitrary and Capricious manner. Arbitrary and capricious conduct on the part of government is illegal on its face, yet the federals have given the TSA this mode of operation. They granted powers they don't have themselves.
This is nothing but contempt for law, and rule by brute force. And that is why in the Senate defense authorization bill passed last week the senate rescinded the prohibition against using the US military on the citizens in the US. They intend to rule by force.
You aren't being rhetorical. This is exactly what the federal court said in the EPIC lawsuit because it is explicitly stated in the act passed by congress. The congress, the president, and the supreme court, all three branches of the federal government, granted TSA a blank check to behave in an Arbitrary and Capricious manner. Arbitrary and capricious conduct on the part of government is illegal on its face, yet the federals have given the TSA this mode of operation. They granted powers they don't have themselves.
This is nothing but contempt for law, and rule by brute force. And that is why in the Senate defense authorization bill passed last week the senate rescinded the prohibition against using the US military on the citizens in the US. They intend to rule by force.
Dec 6, 2011, 10:38 am
#26
Moderator: Chase Ultimate Rewards
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 2P, MR LT Plat, IHG Plat, BW Dia, HH Au, Avis PC
Posts: 5,457
Maybe this needs to be said again...
Every time you agree to be complicit in these procedures, you are encouraging them.
If you answer the BDO questions, you are supporting the program.
If you use the AIT, you are supporting the AIT.
At this point, especially in FT, we all know what is possible at the airport and must plan ahead for it, including making sure we have plenty of time at the airport to miss a flight or two.
It's time every one of us took responsibility for our roles in this. If we still choose to travel in the current conditions, anything less than opting out is support for the TSA. No, it's worse. It's encouragement.
Every time you agree to be complicit in these procedures, you are encouraging them.
If you answer the BDO questions, you are supporting the program.
If you use the AIT, you are supporting the AIT.
At this point, especially in FT, we all know what is possible at the airport and must plan ahead for it, including making sure we have plenty of time at the airport to miss a flight or two.
It's time every one of us took responsibility for our roles in this. If we still choose to travel in the current conditions, anything less than opting out is support for the TSA. No, it's worse. It's encouragement.
Dec 6, 2011, 12:39 pm
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 174
Maybe this needs to be said again...
Every time you agree to be complicit in these procedures, you are encouraging them.
If you answer the BDO questions, you are supporting the program.
If you use the AIT, you are supporting the AIT.
At this point, especially in FT, we all know what is possible at the airport and must plan ahead for it, including making sure we have plenty of time at the airport to miss a flight or two.
It's time every one of us took responsibility for our roles in this. If we still choose to travel in the current conditions, anything less than opting out is support for the TSA. No, it's worse. It's encouragement.
Every time you agree to be complicit in these procedures, you are encouraging them.
If you answer the BDO questions, you are supporting the program.
If you use the AIT, you are supporting the AIT.
At this point, especially in FT, we all know what is possible at the airport and must plan ahead for it, including making sure we have plenty of time at the airport to miss a flight or two.
It's time every one of us took responsibility for our roles in this. If we still choose to travel in the current conditions, anything less than opting out is support for the TSA. No, it's worse. It's encouragement.
Dec 6, 2011, 1:35 pm
#29
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas City, MO
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 3,649
answer with a question
How does TSA respond at these chatdowns if you answer every one of their questions with a question like:
why do you want to know?
why is this relevant?
what difference does it make?
why are you asking me these questions?
If you just keep answering with more questions how long will they try to keep it up?
why do you want to know?
why is this relevant?
what difference does it make?
why are you asking me these questions?
If you just keep answering with more questions how long will they try to keep it up?
Dec 6, 2011, 2:43 pm
#30
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: boca raton, florida
Posts: 621
How does TSA respond at these chatdowns if you answer every one of their questions with a question like:
why do you want to know?
why is this relevant?
what difference does it make?
why are you asking me these questions?
If you just keep answering with more questions how long will they try to keep it up?
why do you want to know?
why is this relevant?
what difference does it make?
why are you asking me these questions?
If you just keep answering with more questions how long will they try to keep it up?
Last edited by magic111; Dec 6, 2011 at 3:29 pm Reason: removed personal names