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The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261

Old Jan 1, 2023, 11:31 am
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The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261

Old Apr 20, 2023, 3:13 am
  #691  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 164
My situation dates back to the Covid years but I hope someone can advise if I am entitled to the downgrade EU261 compensation or not.

Original booking was a LHR to LAS return using avios and companion voucher. Out in First, back in Club, on a 747. As we know, BA retired the 747s so the plane was swapped to a 777 and the First outbound was downgraded to Club.

The flight was cancelled and re-booked 3 times due to the US borders being shut but was eventually flown in Dec 2021.

BA have only just refunded me the avios equal to the difference between First and Club for the outbound. Is this all Im entitled to? I feel my case gets mucky because the original flight was cancelled and re-booked?

Thanks
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 5:59 am
  #692  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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Originally Posted by MH1981
BA have only just refunded me the avios equal to the difference between First and Club for the outbound. Is this all I’m entitled to? I feel my case gets mucky because the original flight was cancelled and re-booked?
My reading of the Regulation is that if BA "places" you in Club, when holding a ticket originally booked in First, then that's a downgrade and Mennens would apply. So there needs to be an involuntary component initiated by BA, and ideally you would have recorded your lack of consent to this some way (e.g. by asking for that to be noted on your PNR). BA's view is that downgrades only apply to day of travel events so if they told you in advance then it's not really a downgrade, and typically you are holding a CW ticket at this point - BA would have reissued it. Broadly speaking CEDR tends to agree with BA, there are MCOL cases which BA has lost on this issue, and the bit I can only infer is that BA probably settles other cases with some sort of compromise.

On the other hand if there were a sequence of rebookings, and you - in the end - chose an option where CW was clearly the only way forward then that's like a voluntary change and the fare difference - here expressed as Avios - would seem more correct.
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 6:09 am
  #693  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave

On the other hand if there were a sequence of rebookings, and you - in the end - chose an option where CW was clearly the only way forward then that's like a voluntary change and the fare difference - here expressed as Avios - would seem more correct.
Thank you for the reply CWS. Yes, there were a number of rebookings where I simply chose new dates a few months down the line in the hope the US borders would have then opened. It sounds like if the original flight had taken place Id have a case but having made numerous rebookings its a clear case of accepting the downgrade. Happy to finally get the avios Im owed and forget about it now.
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 7:18 am
  #694  
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 342
Originally Posted by MH1981
Thank you for the reply CWS. Yes, there were a number of rebookings where I simply chose new dates a few months down the line in the hope the US borders would have then opened. It sounds like if the original flight had taken place Id have a case but having made numerous rebookings its a clear case of accepting the downgrade. Happy to finally get the avios Im owed and forget about it now.
I wouldn't take that for granted...

I was in a similar position, only it was flights to.from Canada. Initially, I think I also got the difference in Avios sent to my account (9000 or something, booked during the 50% off promo), but since starting MCOL, I have received more (involuntarily) and note the following from the defence filed by BA:

7. According to BAs records, the fare for First Flight was 40,000 Avios points.
8. BA ceased the First cabin on the route to Toronto and the Claimants booking was changed on 3 December 2021 to travel outbound in Club World. On 8 June 2021 the Claimant changed the flights to depart on 23 September 2021 and return on 2 October 2021.
9. BA has issued the Claimant with a total of 24,000 Avios points. Upon review of the file, it appears there is a difference of 6,000 Avios points to be reimbursed. Without admission of liability, BA is agreeable to issue 6,000 Avios points. The Avios points should be received within 28 days.
Refund
10. As a result of the downgrade of the Claimant was entitled to a refund in accordance with Article 10 (2) of the EC Regulation, of 75% of the price of their ticket (fare only) and also any difference in taxes/charges if applicable.
11. The fare for the first flight was 40,000 Avios points and therefore the applicable 75% refund as a result of the downgrade is 30,000 Avios points.
There are some inaccuracies in the above statement, which is one of the reasons I am still pursuing this further, but it does seem to be an admission that - despite further rebookings/reticketings 'supposedly' by me - 75% refund of Avios is at least due.
I am also seeking 75% of the airline surcharges (ie not government taxes), but that's another story for a later time...

The point is - you can't claim for a downgrade until after the flight is taken - if the subsequent flights are cancelled through no fault of your own, it should not exclude you from being entitled to EC261 protection of the original downgrade forced upon you, involuntarily, due to actions taken by BA
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 8:14 am
  #695  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by sayling

The point is - you can't claim for a downgrade until after the flight is taken - if the subsequent flights are cancelled through no fault of your own, it should not exclude you from being entitled to EC261 protection of the original downgrade forced upon you, involuntarily, due to actions taken by BA
Very interesting indeed. Ok, this has got me motivated again. Thank you sayling, this is an extremely useful reply.
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 9:09 am
  #696  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Derbyshire,UK
Programs: BAEC Gold, IHG Gold
Posts: 115
Just avoided going to CEDR

Just had email accepting claims for compensation & expenses on outbound & inbound delays causing missed connections.
BA67 Feb 9th & BA206 Feb 21st. Now just waiting for the 2000+ , for 2 of us , to hit the account.
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 10:48 am
  #697  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Programs: IHG Plat, HHonors Diamond, SPG Gold,VS, BA.
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Thank you for an admirably clear layout and precision on this, it makes it a lot easier to give a sensible reply though I may need to update this later after I've had more caffeine!

So personally I would regard the Companion Voucher as replacing the quantity of Avios concerned, so let's say your staring point is 360k Avios. One person affected only, so 180k. One direction affected, so 90K. Hence in my opinion it's 90k x 75%.

For the second question relating to cash, that indeed is complex, since APD is charged on the affected leg and BA is entitled to that money in order to pay HMRC. So strictly speaking you would split it by leg and charge that, so that looks like the 123 figure. I would actually claim 130 at this point, and if it gets to MCOL then the judge can reduce it a bit but s/he cannot increase the figure you claim.

I mention that since BA really struggles with this are and Mennens has made it more complicated. So you are doing the right thing here working out approximately what to look for - and you can also do a cash equivalent for the Avios - and look to what BA actually offers. I would take this to MCOL fairly soon on if BA doesn't get close to your figures. A key point to be made - since BA will be able to claim the CVs were used albeit in WTP, is that you would never have used a CV for WTP in any circumstances, and given a choice you would have retrieved the CV and replaced it with Avios.
Thanks so much for this input CWS - very much appreciated.

Having never submitted a claim before, would you recommend including my figures & rationale (along with the fact I wouldn't ever have used the CV to travel in WTP) in the first instance - or instead keep it simple and have them to hand and prepared to argue them down the line depending on what they come back with.

Finally, just to sense check - this is the right place to submit the claim? (Checking In --> Airport Check In --> I was downgraded from the Travel Class I Booked)
https://www.britishairways.com/trave...service-portal
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 11:49 am
  #698  
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Originally Posted by FlyingChris47
Finally, just to sense check - this is the right place to submit the claim? (Checking In --> Airport Check In --> I was downgraded from the Travel Class I Booked)
https://www.britishairways.com/trave...service-portal
Yes it is, and the easier to remember shortcut URL is
ba.com/complaints
Some people report difficulty in uploading receipts (which presumably doesn't apply here) and so need to input it without logging into BAEC first, then updating the claim to add the BAEC number. But other people don't have this issue.
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 2:17 pm
  #699  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Omaha
Programs: AA Life Plat 4mm, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,475
On an AA Award trip ATH/LHR/ORD/OMA - around a month ago BA canceled BA621 - 10 am - put us on 642 at 3:30, of course LHR to US now the next day, I paid 159 for the t4 Hilton - ate in the lounge, breakfast at AC so no food expense.
Got home last night at 18:42 so around 21 hours late
Should I just ask for hotel reimbursement? Will BA say I should take this up with AA I have a BA and AA PNR
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Old Apr 20, 2023, 2:20 pm
  #700  
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Originally Posted by kmandrew
On an AA Award trip ATH/LHR/ORD/OMA - around a month ago BA canceled BA621 - 10 am - put us on 642 at 3:30, of course LHR to US now the next day, I paid 159 for the t4 Hilton - ate in the lounge, breakfast at AC so no food expense.
Got home last night at 18:42 so around 21 hours late
Should I just ask for hotel reimbursement? Will BA say I should take this up with AA I have a BA and AA PNR
It's by flight operator. So BA should repay the hotel, under Right to Care, they usually do this without quibble. If it seems that BA cancelled this flight without extraordinary circumstances then separately you should claim for EC261 delay compensation. If you don't know the reason for the cancellation then claim for it anyway.
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Old Apr 21, 2023, 1:34 am
  #701  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Mexico
Programs: BAEC Gold / SQ *A Gold / Marriott Titanium
Posts: 3,690
Hi, am I missing something in the wiki/initial posts? I waited 2 months for a very straightforward delay claim to be rejected for an absurd reason. I will go to CEDR now, but above I don't see the info on this. I only see info about going the MCOL route. Is there someone I should be looking for the CEDR info?

Just as a reference, BA243 (LHR to MEX was delayed for technical reasons for close to 90 mins, then BA242 was further delayed for performance issues. We landed 5 mins after our original connection was due to take off. Here was what BA tried to fob me off with:


"We’re sorry it was necessary to delay your flight from Mexico City on 13 February 2023 and understand why you needed to get in contact about this. We take all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight and we’ll always consider if there are any alternative solutions available before we make a decision. We'd also like to thank you for your patience while we got back to you about this.Your claim's been refused because BA0242 on 13 February 2023 was delayed by 121 minutes. However, your scheduled connection time was 120 minutes. The minimum connection time at London Heathrow Terminal 5 is 60 minutes. This means there needs to be 61 minutes of payable delay minutes to take you over the minimum connection time. There were only 49 minutes of payable delay minutes on your flight and the previous rotation. On the next previous rotation there were no delayed minutes as that flight was on time. This is how a missed connection is worked out.

We always welcome feedback, as it helps us to understand what we need to focus on, so I'm glad you have let us know what happened."


Any suggestions on what i need to do to proceed? I've not gone to CEDR before, so am a little bit lost

Warm wishes
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Old Apr 21, 2023, 1:52 am
  #702  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: FL390 or the iron way
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,927
Originally Posted by TTmex
Hi, am I missing something in the wiki/initial posts? I waited 2 months for a very straightforward delay claim to be rejected for an absurd reason. I will go to CEDR now, but above I don't see the info on this. I only see info about going the MCOL route. Is there someone I should be looking for the CEDR info?

Just as a reference, BA243 (LHR to MEX was delayed for technical reasons for close to 90 mins, then BA242 was further delayed for performance issues. We landed 5 mins after our original connection was due to take off. Here was what BA tried to fob me off with:


"We’re sorry it was necessary to delay your flight from Mexico City on 13 February 2023 and understand why you needed to get in contact about this. We take all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight and we’ll always consider if there are any alternative solutions available before we make a decision. We'd also like to thank you for your patience while we got back to you about this.Your claim's been refused because BA0242 on 13 February 2023 was delayed by 121 minutes. However, your scheduled connection time was 120 minutes. The minimum connection time at London Heathrow Terminal 5 is 60 minutes. This means there needs to be 61 minutes of payable delay minutes to take you over the minimum connection time. There were only 49 minutes of payable delay minutes on your flight and the previous rotation. On the next previous rotation there were no delayed minutes as that flight was on time. This is how a missed connection is worked out.

We always welcome feedback, as it helps us to understand what we need to focus on, so I'm glad you have let us know what happened."


Any suggestions on what i need to do to proceed? I've not gone to CEDR before, so am a little bit lost

Warm wishes
The MCT at LHR is irrelevant because that only applies when booking flights. When actually making a connection, it's about the time actually required (which is likely less than the MCT) and whether you could have made it. Clearly if they are trying to argue that there were only 49 'qualifying' delay minutes then this is perhaps a moot point, but it's worth refuting anyway.

CEDR is really very simple, you fill out a long form giving all the details of the flight, your case history and what you're claiming for. The only bit where you have to write something is in your description of events. If you want to write more than what the form lets you (there's a character limit) you can attach it instead and write something like "see attachment XYZ". You'll also want to attach all relevant correspondence with BA, to show that you have waited 8 weeks and/or are in deadlock (received a 'final response').

I'll leave others to comment on the delay reasons but unless there is more to this than you know (e.g. if the 90 minute delay to BA243 wasn't purely for technical reasons), I don't see that they have great prospects of winning at CEDR. I would definitely lump in a claim for so-called "statutory" 8% interest, there's no harm in doing so - worst that can happen is it gets rejected.
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Old Apr 21, 2023, 1:59 am
  #703  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 221
I hope this is not too controversial but whilst I have enjoyed a few compensation payments I do wonder how much these payments are costing us all. I am relatively confident that whatever the annual amount BA are reimbursing, and I suspect it is substantial, that this amount is being added to the cost of new flights we are taking. This is OK for the "I will never fly BA again" brigade but for those remaining loyal it might account for some of the horrendous business/First fares we are seeing on many routes.
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Old Apr 21, 2023, 2:00 am
  #704  
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Originally Posted by TTmex
Hi, am I missing something in the wiki/initial posts? I waited 2 months for a very straightforward delay claim to be rejected for an absurd reason. I will go to CEDR now, but above I don't see the info on this. I only see info about going the MCOL route. Is there someone I should be looking for the CEDR info?
You are the second person to ask this very recently (see posts 654, 655), so I'll see what I can do to highlight this better. Past experience suggests it won't work though! In the meantime you can look at post 1, point 35 and the linked post in point 35a.
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Old Apr 21, 2023, 2:05 am
  #705  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: FL390 or the iron way
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Posts: 1,927
Originally Posted by DelTroon
I hope this is not too controversial but whilst I have enjoyed a few compensation payments I do wonder how much these payments are costing us all. I am relatively confident that whatever the annual amount BA are reimbursing, and I suspect it is substantial, that this amount is being added to the cost of new flights we are taking. This is OK for the "I will never fly BA again" brigade but for those remaining loyal it might account for some of the horrendous business/First fares we are seeing on many routes.
I suspect the amount BA pays out is minimal in the grand scheme of things. So few flights are cancelled or sufficiently delayed under qualifying circumstances, and even within that, only those who apply for compensation have any prospect of receiving it. BA frequently wrongly denies claims too. So perhaps at worst 10% of passengers on 1% of flights will ever get compensation (it's probably even less than that).

Flight prices don't really have a huge correlation with costs; they are almost entirely demand based. If there isn't sufficient demand for a route to be profitable, it will simply be dropped. The situation with EU261 compensation was exactly the same before the current explosion in premium fares.
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