Butts

See post #1072

They have just agreed to pay me for the same outbound date as you.

And a belated thanks to CWS for your initial guidance. I got everything you predicted I would namely :

Full Holiday Refund
EU 261 and Expenses to get back to Scotland.
Plus I got a free night in a 4* Hotel with Breakfast and 200 Duty Free Fags purchased before my Dusseldorf Flight was cancelled - wish I'd bought 400 now !!

Seawinder

I’ve just had my return flight from Athens cancelled with 8 days notice. It’s a CE booking to LGW and the only options offered are 7 hours earlier or 6 hours later. I’ve booked alternative flights to be safe. BA are saying that no compensation will be due because this was a commercial decision to cancel the service. I’ve asked what that actually means and they’ve said that they can’t tell me because it’s commercially sensitive! On the plus side they have said that they understand how disappointed I must be and said they will share with the relevant Managers etc.

corporate-wage-slave

It's not true though. All cancellations more than a few days off fundamentally have a commercial reason to them. And airlines are allowed to do this, they just have to compensate customers for this. I'm surprised they are telling you this in advance, since in reality EC261 can only be processed after completion of the flight or sending in the refund. In reality it often has to wait for all flight sectors to be completed. Then it goes to another team, Customer Relations, who make the decisions on EC261 - they allegedly have been trained in this. You will note from the last two dozen posts here that BA have often been denying EC261 in your circumstances, but if you took it to MCOL or CEDR you would be compensated in line with the law.

If you have already travelled and get that sort of answer, then it's the usual advice: ask them to confirm that their decision will not change, then go to CEDR. For MCOL you don't even need to do that after a decline from BA.

Seawinder

Many thanks for your helpful response. I’ll take your advice and sort it out when I get back. In the meantime I assume I don’t in any way compromise my position by just ignoring their suggested changes and using the replacement flights I’ve booked separately?

omk298

At least the CEDR or MCOL claim will be very easy, if they've put in writing that it was a commercial decision to cancel!

corporate-wage-slave

No you don't compromise your case by taking up replacement flights since the only other option is a refund, and that gets compensation too. By all means since a webform in to register that you are accepting the changed flights "under protest" but I don't think that greatly matters.

LSunbury

I do wonder if the staff are not trained at all and are just automatically and blindly sending out emails with deliberate lies, as instructed by their Managers, or whether they actually are trained and do understand and realise what they are sending out to customers out are lies?

Butts

I can only speak from my recent experience relating the fact that the staff ( once you actually get a response from a named individual) seem to be extremely well informed and erudite.in their application of BA's Policy.

The e-mails I got from Customer Relations were not "cut and paste" but individually tailored to my circumstances. On a number of occasions they tried to ring me and the message left was from an extremely well spoken employee - I work nights so was unable to interact with them.

My main area of criticism would be the lack of synchronicity between BA Holidays and BA Direct if your claim involves elements provided by both as they are dealt with separately.

bedelman

I'm advising a passenger who was ticketed to fly SEA-LHR on an AA(BA) codeshare, in paid first class. With ~six weeks notice, BA canceled the late departure (~7pm). AA sent an email saying no alternatives available. GDS shows a BA departure at ~1pm (with some first class inventory left), as well as a Delta flight (only business class; no first cabin) also at ~7pm.

Passenger prefers the time booked in the cabin booked. That's why it was booked this way! If passenger has to choose between departure time and cabin, passenger chooses time.

A first question is whether AA (the marketing carrier for this segment) will even endorse passenger onto Delta. At one point AA and Delta fought about irrops handling. Looks like that's now resolved.

A second question is what refund and/or EC261 compensation if any is due. A move from AA(BA) first to Delta business is a downgrade, so natural starting point is 75% of the affected segment. I suppose BA could argue that it had a first class seat available on the 1pm flight, and passenger should have taken that. Indeed, with 6 weeks notice, BA might argue that no benefits are payable under EC261 for the cancellation of the original flight or significantly different time of the new flight.

Of course passenger would be entitled to the fare difference. But we all know the many ways to calculate fare differences. Risk of AA calculating this to be next to nothing. Undeniably the AA(BA) fares that book into A cost only a bit more than those that book into I or R, if a customer has the right advance purchase, min stay, etc. and if inventory is available. Could be a very bad deal for the passenger, who had gotten a great price for first but instead ends up charged a rather poor price for business.

corporate-wage-slave

If it was bought via AA, then AA's policies apply here. I know BA would not allow Delta as a replacement at this point, but would authorise Lufthansa. There's also a 300 mile rule, again for BA bookings. But because it's AA then it's AA's policies which apply. Moreover I can't see AA paying for the downgrade either, that would be via USA policies here.

bedelman

But the only two nonstop carriers in this market are BA and Delta. Lots of ways to fly SEA-LHR with a connection, of course, but this is a paid first class passenger who correctly and reasonably wants the convenience and speed of a nonstop.

Agree, as to rebooking rules and calculation of fare difference.

I thought EC261 rules and obligations run with the operating carrier. So after the passenger travels -- however that may, on whatever routing that may be -- the passenger is entitled to EC261 benefits since the original travel was to be operated by a carrier bound by EC261, i.e. BA. No? This is what comes up in the first couple minutes of web search about "EC261 codeshare". Incidentally there can also be unfortunate situations (from the passenger's perspective) in the other direction, e.g. customer buys BA(AA) JFK-LHR or whatever, then AA cancels, and BA would correctly say it is not the operating carrier and is not on the hook, while AA would say it is not a European carrier and was not departing Europe, so it is also not on the hook.

Tobias-UK

EC261 really isn’t much help in this situation. A reroute on DL would be considered a voluntary downgrade so only a fare difference refund (from AA). Because notice of cancellation was received more than 14 days prior to departure no compensation is payable.

mmogdan

The other day landed on schedule at LHR and then waited 20 minutes for a gate, followed by a 6 minute delay for the jetty to be attached / door to be opened. Crew alluded to ground staff issues and there were plenty other gates empty.

By the time I had departed the plane and got to connection centre I was told I had missed conformance for the connecting flight and there was nothing they could do. I told them I was HBO plus I knew exactly where I was going but was told no. Connection was a domestic and it was the last flight of the day so I had to overnight and fly in the morning.

If there wasn’t the delay waiting for the gate or delay attaching the jetty I would have made it. I believe this should be in-scope for EU261. What are your thoughts?

corporate-wage-slave

Yes, if it was under BA control, you potentially are in scope. However if there were other delays not under BA's control which made the connection unlikely to work then you will be up against another set of arguments. If the flight was on time but the handling put you outside conformance then I'm not sure it adds up, given a 1 hour MCT.

Im a new user

The regulation says that downgrade compensation is due "If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased" but if the passenger is downgraded a long time in advance, then it may be a marketing air carrier or a travel agency which places the passenger in a lower class. Unclear what happens in that case. The regulation seems to make the assumption that the passenger only ever deals with the operating air carrier, but there are many situations where the passenger is dealing with someone else, for example the marketing air carrier.

If there was enough time to walk to the departure gate before boarding ended, but BA prevented you from walking to the gate, then it sounds like a clear case of involuntarily denied boarding.