BA Recall Staff from 26 Jun [the BA staff/unions/redundancies thread]
Jun 27, 2020, 7:53 am
#106
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Programs: Mucci des Hommes Magiques et Magnifiques
Posts: 19,107
We will just have to wait and see about that.
Jun 28, 2020, 12:47 am
#107
Join Date: Jun 2017
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 63
That was a response to someone yet again belittling the job that cabin crew do. I’m sure you realise that the job of a CSD or CSM, particularly when on a large jet with a lot of passengers and crew, is a managing role.
I don’t want anyone to have a pay cut forced on them during this pandemic. I do have Managers who are friends and I don’t want any of them to lose their jobs or take a pay cut.
I realise that restructuring and redundancies are going to be needed. I wish this had all been handled a little more carefully and thoughtfully at the start. I can see that BA now is responding to staff concerns about taking large pay cuts and hopefully the unions will start to engage.
I don’t want anyone to have a pay cut forced on them during this pandemic. I do have Managers who are friends and I don’t want any of them to lose their jobs or take a pay cut.
I realise that restructuring and redundancies are going to be needed. I wish this had all been handled a little more carefully and thoughtfully at the start. I can see that BA now is responding to staff concerns about taking large pay cuts and hopefully the unions will start to engage.
i have just this year been through a Dismiss & Recontract T’s & C’s Harmonisation process so know what’s involved, and I fully get the need for what BA is trying to achieve. Through consultation it’s fair to say that there will be compromises on all sides. But what I do hear is grievance more from those earning more, than those earning less, which could be understandable... to a degree.
My last thought is..If every employee of BA who was proud to work for them looked at the bigger picture, recognised the significant fight for survival, and accepted that no-one goes to work hell bent on enjoying making tough decisions and upsetting people, then the airline might just make it. It seems to me that legacy staff are just trying to hold onto what they know is just not as viable as it was, and that times are changing. If not happy, okay, that’s heard. But don’t stay with a company you feel doesn’t treat you well. Go elsewhere. Go find a job that pays similar salary and bonuses/top ups elsewhere (that won’t be easy).
The more infighting, the less attractive to the paying public the airline will become. Customers are not interested in how much employees are paid, we just want a great service. We pick up on bad vibes, resentment and disengagement, and this manifests itself through the service delivered. That’s what will stop the recovery, not the way crews are organised and remunerated.
Jun 28, 2020, 1:42 am
#108
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Programs: Tufty Club (Gold), BAGA Gymnastics level 4, 440yds swimming certificate
Posts: 2,533
i expect they’ll be slightly improved. Not sure what the term Dead in the water means - maybe theyre considered too poor for BA to get enough acceptance?
The union doesn’t have to agree to the proposals for them to be implemented. Consultation does not mean agreement is needed.
The unions are unlikely to recommend any proposal here due to the sensitive and massive nature of the situation. They normally sit on the fence with anything remotely controversial. BA wont waste time on trying to get anything the union will recommend as they know any ultimate ballot will just take time and not really mean anything.
They have already made significant changes to improve the public perspective on these changes
1) they aren’t sacking everyone and hiring them back (although it may feel like that)
2) they have introduced a VR element
3) they have slightly increased the package on offer
4) the have introduced a basic pay protection guarantee (which is hit but sounds good to the press)
i think the legacy fleets Are ok about flying together and working to the same agreements. I think though there are a large band of them who will only ever be happy with temporary changes to their current payment terms, to which they should be returned in 3/4 years time when performance recovers.
BA aren’t going to do a U turn, but I expect they’ll give something. The new agreement will be nearer to what’s on the table now though than something completely different.
The union doesn’t have to agree to the proposals for them to be implemented. Consultation does not mean agreement is needed.
The unions are unlikely to recommend any proposal here due to the sensitive and massive nature of the situation. They normally sit on the fence with anything remotely controversial. BA wont waste time on trying to get anything the union will recommend as they know any ultimate ballot will just take time and not really mean anything.
They have already made significant changes to improve the public perspective on these changes
1) they aren’t sacking everyone and hiring them back (although it may feel like that)
2) they have introduced a VR element
3) they have slightly increased the package on offer
4) the have introduced a basic pay protection guarantee (which is hit but sounds good to the press)
i think the legacy fleets Are ok about flying together and working to the same agreements. I think though there are a large band of them who will only ever be happy with temporary changes to their current payment terms, to which they should be returned in 3/4 years time when performance recovers.
BA aren’t going to do a U turn, but I expect they’ll give something. The new agreement will be nearer to what’s on the table now though than something completely different.
Jun 28, 2020, 3:54 am
#109
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,110
A P Yu and degsy328 - I suspect your comments won’t be taken particularly well by some here! But you do make some reasonable points.
Trouble is everyone enjoys a good BA bash. There are lots of people who are understandably upset and feel “betrayed” constantly by BA, particularly legacy fleets. They’ve also got the backing of the Union too who are only further increasing that anti-BA sentiment rather than actually trying to make this situation any better. Like others have said, life is short and if a job or a company is no longer good for you and if it is indeed so so so terrible and stabbing you in the back, then you need to move on. There’s no point staying in somewhere where you feel not welcome and that you’re being betrayed at every step. With the right attitude and determination you will find something else and pay will automatically catch up as long as you progress and prove your skills elsewhere. Of course I’m not saying that can be achieved now during the pandemic in the short term, but clearly the anti-BA sentiment from Unions (and their members) isn’t “new” and has only got worse since 2010.
Having said that, this is a difficult scenario and ultimately even without negotiation BA have softened their stance and not followed through with any of the threats laid out in their initial S188. I think it is imperative that compromises are made. A single LHR fleet makes business sense and operational sense and there does need to be compromises on all sides and judging by the way BA have behaved, it is clear there is room and they are willing to make those compromises.
Contrast this to BALPA, who have been negotiating from day 1 and they are imminently reaching a deal with BA with half of the redundancy numbers than BA first announced in their S188 to them and they’ve agreed to a pay cut. There is maturity and reality in their approach. I just hope finally come Monday Unite realise this and work towards a good compromise. I sincerely hope their ploy isn’t just to “talk” but with no intention of actually getting a genuine deal and only to “kick can down the road” to enable industrial action later...
Trouble is everyone enjoys a good BA bash. There are lots of people who are understandably upset and feel “betrayed” constantly by BA, particularly legacy fleets. They’ve also got the backing of the Union too who are only further increasing that anti-BA sentiment rather than actually trying to make this situation any better. Like others have said, life is short and if a job or a company is no longer good for you and if it is indeed so so so terrible and stabbing you in the back, then you need to move on. There’s no point staying in somewhere where you feel not welcome and that you’re being betrayed at every step. With the right attitude and determination you will find something else and pay will automatically catch up as long as you progress and prove your skills elsewhere. Of course I’m not saying that can be achieved now during the pandemic in the short term, but clearly the anti-BA sentiment from Unions (and their members) isn’t “new” and has only got worse since 2010.
Having said that, this is a difficult scenario and ultimately even without negotiation BA have softened their stance and not followed through with any of the threats laid out in their initial S188. I think it is imperative that compromises are made. A single LHR fleet makes business sense and operational sense and there does need to be compromises on all sides and judging by the way BA have behaved, it is clear there is room and they are willing to make those compromises.
Contrast this to BALPA, who have been negotiating from day 1 and they are imminently reaching a deal with BA with half of the redundancy numbers than BA first announced in their S188 to them and they’ve agreed to a pay cut. There is maturity and reality in their approach. I just hope finally come Monday Unite realise this and work towards a good compromise. I sincerely hope their ploy isn’t just to “talk” but with no intention of actually getting a genuine deal and only to “kick can down the road” to enable industrial action later...
Jun 28, 2020, 4:26 am
#110
Join Date: Oct 2013
Programs: BA Gold, VS Gold, IHG Platinum, Hilton Gold, Hertz Presidents Circle.
Posts: 1,448
Pilots
Just saw this on Bloomberg, The Sun was the original source....
"British Airways, a unit of International Consolidated Airlines Group, will cut 350 pilots and put another 300 in a “pool” for re-hire when needed as part of a deal reached with cockpit crew, The Sun reported.
Most of the pilots facing compulsory redundancies worked from Gatwick airport in London, according to the report, which didn’t say where the information came from. Captains and first officers who are placed in the pool don’t currently have an aircraft to work on and will remain on half-pay, while all other operating flight crew will take a 15% pay cut for now, it said."
Can't decide if 50% of pay to sit around and wait to be called is a good or bad deal really.....
"British Airways, a unit of International Consolidated Airlines Group, will cut 350 pilots and put another 300 in a “pool” for re-hire when needed as part of a deal reached with cockpit crew, The Sun reported.
Most of the pilots facing compulsory redundancies worked from Gatwick airport in London, according to the report, which didn’t say where the information came from. Captains and first officers who are placed in the pool don’t currently have an aircraft to work on and will remain on half-pay, while all other operating flight crew will take a 15% pay cut for now, it said."
Can't decide if 50% of pay to sit around and wait to be called is a good or bad deal really.....
Jun 28, 2020, 4:32 am
#111
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,065
Just saw this on Bloomberg, The Sun was the original source....
"British Airways, a unit of International Consolidated Airlines Group, will cut 350 pilots and put another 300 in a “pool” for re-hire when needed as part of a deal reached with cockpit crew, The Sun reported.
Most of the pilots facing compulsory redundancies worked from Gatwick airport in London, according to the report, which didn’t say where the information came from. Captains and first officers who are placed in the pool don’t currently have an aircraft to work on and will remain on half-pay, while all other operating flight crew will take a 15% pay cut for now, it said."
Can't decide if 50% of pay to sit around and wait to be called is a good or bad deal really.....
"British Airways, a unit of International Consolidated Airlines Group, will cut 350 pilots and put another 300 in a “pool” for re-hire when needed as part of a deal reached with cockpit crew, The Sun reported.
Most of the pilots facing compulsory redundancies worked from Gatwick airport in London, according to the report, which didn’t say where the information came from. Captains and first officers who are placed in the pool don’t currently have an aircraft to work on and will remain on half-pay, while all other operating flight crew will take a 15% pay cut for now, it said."
Can't decide if 50% of pay to sit around and wait to be called is a good or bad deal really.....
Jun 28, 2020, 4:48 am
#112
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 72
A P Yu and degsy328 - I suspect your comments won’t be taken particularly well by some here! But you do make some reasonable points.
Trouble is everyone enjoys a good BA bash. There are lots of people who are understandably upset and feel “betrayed” constantly by BA, particularly legacy fleets. They’ve also got the backing of the Union too who are only further increasing that anti-BA sentiment rather than actually trying to make this situation any better. Like others have said, life is short and if a job or a company is no longer good for you and if it is indeed so so so terrible and stabbing you in the back, then you need to move on. There’s no point staying in somewhere where you feel not welcome and that you’re being betrayed at every step. With the right attitude and determination you will find something else and pay will automatically catch up as long as you progress and prove your skills elsewhere. Of course I’m not saying that can be achieved now during the pandemic in the short term, but clearly the anti-BA sentiment from Unions (and their members) isn’t “new” and has only got worse since 2010.
Having said that, this is a difficult scenario and ultimately even without negotiation BA have softened their stance and not followed through with any of the threats laid out in their initial S188. I think it is imperative that compromises are made. A single LHR fleet makes business sense and operational sense and there does need to be compromises on all sides and judging by the way BA have behaved, it is clear there is room and they are willing to make those compromises.
Contrast this to BALPA, who have been negotiating from day 1 and they are imminently reaching a deal with BA with half of the redundancy numbers than BA first announced in their S188 to them and they’ve agreed to a pay cut. There is maturity and reality in their approach. I just hope finally come Monday Unite realise this and work towards a good compromise. I sincerely hope their ploy isn’t just to “talk” but with no intention of actually getting a genuine deal and only to “kick can down the road” to enable industrial action later...
Trouble is everyone enjoys a good BA bash. There are lots of people who are understandably upset and feel “betrayed” constantly by BA, particularly legacy fleets. They’ve also got the backing of the Union too who are only further increasing that anti-BA sentiment rather than actually trying to make this situation any better. Like others have said, life is short and if a job or a company is no longer good for you and if it is indeed so so so terrible and stabbing you in the back, then you need to move on. There’s no point staying in somewhere where you feel not welcome and that you’re being betrayed at every step. With the right attitude and determination you will find something else and pay will automatically catch up as long as you progress and prove your skills elsewhere. Of course I’m not saying that can be achieved now during the pandemic in the short term, but clearly the anti-BA sentiment from Unions (and their members) isn’t “new” and has only got worse since 2010.
Having said that, this is a difficult scenario and ultimately even without negotiation BA have softened their stance and not followed through with any of the threats laid out in their initial S188. I think it is imperative that compromises are made. A single LHR fleet makes business sense and operational sense and there does need to be compromises on all sides and judging by the way BA have behaved, it is clear there is room and they are willing to make those compromises.
Contrast this to BALPA, who have been negotiating from day 1 and they are imminently reaching a deal with BA with half of the redundancy numbers than BA first announced in their S188 to them and they’ve agreed to a pay cut. There is maturity and reality in their approach. I just hope finally come Monday Unite realise this and work towards a good compromise. I sincerely hope their ploy isn’t just to “talk” but with no intention of actually getting a genuine deal and only to “kick can down the road” to enable industrial action later...
I am sure BALPA and UNITE are talking? So assume UNITE will look for similar deal?
Jun 28, 2020, 4:55 am
#113
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,065
As I stated this is a wholly unsubstantiated rumour that BALPA have told pilots to ignore, no-one can confirm or deny anything.
Jun 28, 2020, 4:57 am
#114
Join Date: Oct 2013
Programs: BA Gold, VS Gold, IHG Platinum, Hilton Gold, Hertz Presidents Circle.
Posts: 1,448
Jun 28, 2020, 9:56 am
#115
Join Date: Jul 2011
Programs: Mucci de la Cuisine Aérienne du Réseau Courte Durée de British Airways
Posts: 4,704
The CAA have given dispensation for BA cabin crew to do their annual refresher and exams online while Covid19 is an issue.
While on furlough we are allowed to do essential training or exams and so crew are rostered to do this learning while furloughed to keep us in check.
While on furlough we are allowed to do essential training or exams and so crew are rostered to do this learning while furloughed to keep us in check.
Jun 28, 2020, 10:53 am
#116
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Programs: Tufty Club (Gold), BAGA Gymnastics level 4, 440yds swimming certificate
Posts: 2,533
So long as BA don’t impose the redundancy for all they will have done enough to stop the noise from Westminster, now they have offered to protect the basic too so that also helps shut that down.
The union has to protect jobs, they can do more of that by accepting more cuts, but will that be acceptable to the legacy staff?
negotiations will no doubt start from their current position of Ts and Cs, but than can be a quick review of each component with the full cost of each explained, with the unions then asked to come up with other savings and given a day or so to come up with that.
after a couple of weeks a meaningless ballot will be issued and shortly after BA will offer their new contracts.
1) a VR scheme will have been offered, with the terms possibly slightly increased (and offered to MF crew for fairness)
2) they won’t have sacked Everyone (I think they regret that threat now)
3) the selection process used will have been agreed with the union (the union accept redundancies are inevitable)
4) the basic pay protection offer is a good enough headline to get ITV off the case
5) the number of jobs lost will be less than planned so both sides can pat themselves on the back
6) they may use the “pool” idea too to make the headline Job losses seem more palatable too
The union has to protect jobs, they can do more of that by accepting more cuts, but will that be acceptable to the legacy staff?
negotiations will no doubt start from their current position of Ts and Cs, but than can be a quick review of each component with the full cost of each explained, with the unions then asked to come up with other savings and given a day or so to come up with that.
after a couple of weeks a meaningless ballot will be issued and shortly after BA will offer their new contracts.
1) a VR scheme will have been offered, with the terms possibly slightly increased (and offered to MF crew for fairness)
2) they won’t have sacked Everyone (I think they regret that threat now)
3) the selection process used will have been agreed with the union (the union accept redundancies are inevitable)
4) the basic pay protection offer is a good enough headline to get ITV off the case
5) the number of jobs lost will be less than planned so both sides can pat themselves on the back
6) they may use the “pool” idea too to make the headline Job losses seem more palatable too
Jun 28, 2020, 1:27 pm
#117
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hampshire, UK
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 372
It seems Unite have been talking to city analysts to try to peruse them that BA don't need to make such large cuts. But it doesn't sounds like it went very well for them:
This is Money: 'Delusional' unions could destroy BA, analysts warn.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ysts-warn.html
This is Money: 'Delusional' unions could destroy BA, analysts warn.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ysts-warn.html
Jun 28, 2020, 1:29 pm
#118
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: London
Programs: BA Silver (for now)
Posts: 1,000
Not correct. Training is allowed.
Jun 28, 2020, 2:00 pm
#119
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Mucci, BA, AF
Posts: 10,130
I did think this would happen. I guess it’s better for the crew as they don’t have to stay in foreign hotels which could increase their chances of getting COVID-19. It also cuts considerable costs though by not having to pay for meals and hotel rooms.
I wonder if they will try and cut back nightstops in the longer term too.
I wonder if they will try and cut back nightstops in the longer term too.
Jun 28, 2020, 2:46 pm
#120
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,110
It seems Unite have been talking to city analysts to try to peruse them that BA don't need to make such large cuts. But it doesn't sounds like it went very well for them:
This is Money: 'Delusional' unions could destroy BA, analysts warn.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ysts-warn.html
This is Money: 'Delusional' unions could destroy BA, analysts warn.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ysts-warn.html