Waterhorse

Thats my gut feeling too

Can I help you

Let’s just wait and see, it’s Friday so BA normally drop a new offer as they leave Waterside for the weekend!

Saladman

Oh ok, shouldn’t be an issue then. I’ve worked where people got worse contracts and significantly worse pensions and it did cause issues. But it sounds like it wouldn’t be a problem. (I don’t know if there are any MF on here who would offer their perspective).

I guess it also depends on the scale of the inequality - taking into account what CIHY said above about CSMs potentially earning less than legacy crew on the same flight.

From BAs point of view, on the basis that legacy crew would thus cost more to employ, presumably the greatest savings would come from making them redundant rather than the lower paid fleet, who potentially would need more redundancies to achieve the same cost savings. Is that how it works?

gliderpilot

Why would it be madness? Everyone is trained and qualified in their roles. Is there really such a ‘us and them’ attitude between the fleets?

Saladman

Well CIHY mentioned above (probably half tongue in cheek but maybe half serious too) that he wouldn’t have been interested in working with another fleet, so maybe there is?

Presumably it must be easy to tell who is who. MF have hats all the time and the others don’t seem to, as well as some other differences? Going forward, unless they change the uniform then there will always be differences.

krispy84

The old ‘click send and log-off’ routine. Have been the victim of that many times in the past. As well as occasionally guilty of it myself .... 😔

Littlegirl

We do currently from time to time work together on special flights like Flying Start Champion flights and a few recognition Star flights and the crew always do enjoy the experience.

For legacy crew it is nice to fly with fresh new crew again and see their enthusiasm and for the newer crew, they enjoy working with experienced crew and learning from them.
All our SME (crew with special knowledge) crew come from both fleets and work along crew to help with new aircraft types etc. so we do have mixed flights quite often.

The issue isn’t that we can’t or won’t work together, the issue has been that to work together, legacy crew have been required to give up their agreements and some pay which obviously no one will want to do.

There are many reasons why some crew won’t want to be on any new fleet, loss of earnings, loss of agreements and some won’t want to do long haul, maybe due to childcare issues etc, or shorthaul, maybe due to where they live etc.

Some though are likely to apply because they fear not having a job or because they actually love the job.

Hopefully there will be some kind of an improvement that will be good for both M/F and legacy fleets but ultimately a lot of legacy crew will leave, especially the older ones who may be able to draw their pensions.

510518

So out of interest with so many of the cabin crew on furlough at least through end July how does that affect their aircraft licences do they have to take some in class refresher before they are rostered again. ? Given seems so many are furloughed how might this work given social distancing requirements that may be needed if classroom based or is there an online option ?

Although easily to misinterpret there is a CAA issued guidance ORS4 no, 1354 and ORS4 no 1383 that seems to imply some sort of validity period extension for air crew , maybe referring to pilots although cabin crew are mentioned.

Littlegirl

The CAA have given dispensation for BA cabin crew to do their annual refresher and exams online while Covid19 is an issue.

While on furlough we are allowed to do essential training or exams and so crew are rostered to do this learning while furloughed to keep us in check.

AirbusA350

Littlegirl, you have made some very good, balanced points and it’s lovely to read especially given the difficult and anxious situation all staff (which includes my partner) are in.

Whilst clearly it is a shame that some cannot simply see themselves working together with other fleets, there are also many that would love to have that mix. As others have said there are already many different contracts and pay scales within WW/EF and things seem to be ok. I don’t see that changing or creating any animosity going forward.

It’s not untrue to say that managers in Waterside who oversee crew fleet management may indeed be on lesser salaries than some legacy fleet main crews, for example, IBMs. There don’t seem to be any issues of authority there when it comes to them needing to exercise their management duties over somebody higher paid than them!

Ultimately once all this has passed, with time, I do believe a single fleet Heathrow will be a very cohesive unit and in fact could be a great customer service boost. The ones that hate the company, and have hated the job anyway for years but stayed because it was comfortable, will have left with VR, so what remains then is ex-MF who are happy at a pay rise and grateful for having kept their job, secondly you’ll then have ex-legacy crews that will actually maybe enjoy the challenge of the new job and a new broader team as well as routes. Yes there’s a pay cut but by then the one’s who stay will have (and should have) gradually made adjustments to their life to cope with the reduction.

That’s just my view. I’m sure some would vehemently like to say otherwise just because it mildly promotes BA’s idea of single LHR fleet and supporting anything BA even if it makes operational/logical sense is criminal on here or it must be because of some moles with a hidden agenda of changing the airline slyly through FlyerTalk!

Good luck to all. Clearly there is some positivity amongst this compared to the position this was in say at the beginning of the month. Just hope the Unions actually do something beneficial for their employees’ true interest rather than their own. Shame a lot of staff still can’t see that and still believe BA is hoodwinking them in every possible way and that the Unions are doing a wonderful job! In fact I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit surprised if Unite soon start taking full credit (if they haven’t already!) for any softening BA has done and attributed it to a result of their “strong leverage” campaign and projectors around the country whilst not engaging at any point! Contrary it’d be interesting to see their response if their campaign succeeded in making BA forego slots and ultimately that lead to another 1000 jobs added to the tally of redundancies...

T5ops

I guess this was me? I absolutely do not underestimate the role of a CSD or CSM. Certainly when I was flying I did not want to be a senior purely because the responsibility when things go wrong.

It's more around the disparity of having on board managers being paid much more than their newer counterparts but still expected to do the same job. Especially when you throw into the mix that they are in some cases paid more than the management team looking after them.

I'm outside of flying now, but significant headcount reductions are planned for people earning much less than £56k.

1Aturnleft

You're not meant to be working (full stop) while furloughed. If you're keeping up with essential training and exams while furloughed, your employer is in breech of their requirement as an employer taking advantage of the furlough scheme.

510518

Extract below from the official UK government furlough guidance.

While you’re on furlough

During hours you are on furlough you will not be able to work for your employer. Your employer cannot ask you to do any work for them that:

• makes money for your employer or a company linked or associated to your employer
• provides services to your employer or a company linked or associated to your employer

During hours you are on furlough you can:

• take part in training
• volunteer for another employer or organisation
• work for another employer, if contractually allowed

1Aturnleft

Can doesn't mean you must. There is no obligation to do so. Nor can employers set this as an expectation.
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Tobias-UK

On the contrary, that depends on the contract of employment and any variation to that when agreeing the terms of furlough. Crew would be left in a very precarious position if they failed to keep current whilst on furlough.