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Another 241 downgrade story - from F - with no [EC261] compo

Another 241 downgrade story - from F - with no [EC261] compo

Old Aug 25, 17, 5:59 am
  #136  
 
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Originally Posted by zanderblue View Post
Irrespective of whether 241's are being targeted, wouldn't the passengers best response to a downgrade be to decline it and to request first available flight on comparable basis.

The passengers will get to where the need to be in the class that they booked and paid for as soon as practical.
Incentive for airline is to make it happen otherwise EC261 kicks in and compensates pax.
I in theory would be content with requesting the next flight with seats in the same class, but who is then responsible for paying expenses and overnight accommodation? If we were to be downgraded from CW on our return from BGI on 2 January I note that J is full/potentially oversold for a week!
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Old Aug 25, 17, 6:04 am
  #137  
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I've beening thinking about the 'are 2-4-1s paid for?' issue.

My view is that whilst you don't pay a base fare for the 2nd ticket you still have to pay the fees and taxes for them and that includes the BA 'international surcharge' (or whatever it is called this week) and you could make a case that the ticket is not free due to that element of it.

If BA only charged the proper taxes (APD / transportation taxes) and airport and associated fees (US immigration / agriculture for example) and NOT the YQ they would be on firmer ground that it was actually a 'free' ticket and hence not within the scope of EU261.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 6:10 am
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by Prospero View Post
To put it in slightly more diplomatic terms, I sense a theory has developed in the minds of some that companion vouchers are being specifically targeted for downgrades - ad hoc reports that surface from time to time are being selected to support this theory while reports of commercial ticket holders being downgraded are ignored. Presently,


I am of the mind this is a false theory because:
  • We donít know the true reason why specific passengers are selected. I have been told by a BA employee who I trust that travelling on a 2-4-1 redemption has no influence in the management of oversold flights. Others here have been told the same

  • The assertion that FLY assesses the financial hit of a downgrade is a bit of a red herring. While I understand it is a tremendously clever system, I have my doubts it holds much commercial information, if any at all, on tickets not issued by BA itself, and iíd probably include corporate 125 plated tickets in that category too.

So while this is a fascinating theory and great fodder for us on FT to chew the fat, I donít believe it is something we need to be overly concerned about.
I' m guessing that Mrs Yorkieflyer and I are first in the firing line if the conspiracy theories are true flying back from BGI on 2 January using a 2 4 1
A further thought I have is what about challenging the lack of likely fulfilment of the BA promise to make available at least 2 CW seats on each flight. We knabbed ours at 355 days out when there were 2 seats made available at midnight, I doubt any more were released for a very popular flight and even if they were we booked the "promised" two seats. A downgrade would surely be breach of contract?
.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 6:11 am
  #139  
 
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I've posted this before but will add it here too as it may reassure some terrified souls. I was on an overbooked flight in Club World with my two daughters my wife and I on a 2-4-1 daughters on revenue tickets seperate PNRs so 3 bookings my daughter being the last to check in on line was downgraded. There were 2 other 2-4-1 bookings in the cabin too. I suspect had I paid to reserve seats for my daughters they'd have escaped the downgrade. My lesson learned book seats and check in asap, if you can book seats.

Chasing EU 261 from BA a bit like herding cats but perseverance paid off.

It isn't as easy as find the 2-4-1 companion, well not all the time anyway.

Last edited by Alun; Aug 25, 17 at 6:35 am
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Old Aug 25, 17, 6:16 am
  #140  
 
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Originally Posted by YorkieFlyer View Post
I' m guessing that Mrs Yorkieflyer and I are first in the firing line if the conspiracy theories are true flying back from BGI on 2 January using a 2 4 1
A further thought I have is what about challenging the lack of likely fulfilment of the BA promise to make available at least 2 CW seats on each flight. We knabbed ours at 355 days out when there were 2 seats made available at midnight, I doubt any more were released for a very popular flight and even if they were we booked the "promised" two seats. A downgrade would surely be breach of contract?
.
I agree. I also think that Amex advertising that boils down to "pay £195, spend £10,000 get a 2-4-1". If the 2-4-1 part is not being honoured, is that a breach of contract?
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Old Aug 25, 17, 6:18 am
  #141  
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Originally Posted by AdBoy View Post
To me, you make it sound like he's doing it nefariously. Which, for me, he clearly isn't.
I am not suggesting any motive. However, for the sake of clarity I don't believe it is being done nefariously.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 6:55 am
  #142  
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Originally Posted by bluemoon68 View Post
I agree. I also think that Amex advertising that boils down to "pay £195, spend £10,000 get a 2-4-1". If the 2-4-1 part is not being honoured, is that a breach of contract?
Yes.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:11 am
  #143  
 
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Although I would be very unhappy at being downgraded, my main gripe is that if using a 241, the companion "free" ticket is apparently being denied a EU261 payment. The promotion of the 241 voucher by Amex leads the consumer to believe that by using the voucher they will receive an identical ticket to the one they are booking with their avios. If this second ticket is not identical, by virtue of not being eligible for an EU261 payment, then surely consumer law would dictate that this should be stated clearly at the point of purchase, to allow the consumer to make an informed decision? If I buy something in a shop that includes a free item, and that free item is faulty, the shop cannot simply say "well you paid nothing for the item so we're not giving you a replacement or refund" or "we will replace the faulty item, but with one of a lesser value".
I cannot find anything on the Amex website that states that the companion ticket is anything other than an identical product - and as an identical product, surely it comes with all the protection of EU261 that applies to the main ticket? If EU261 is not applicable to the companion ticket, this should be clearly stated in the terms and conditions relating to the voucher.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:23 am
  #144  
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Originally Posted by SilverSkier View Post
Although I would be very unhappy at being downgraded, my main gripe is that if using a 241, the companion "free" ticket is apparently being denied a EU261 payment. The promotion of the 241 voucher by Amex leads the consumer to believe that by using the voucher they will receive an identical ticket to the one they are booking with their avios. If this second ticket is not identical, by virtue of not being eligible for an EU261 payment, then surely consumer law would dictate that this should be stated clearly at the point of purchase, to allow the consumer to make an informed decision? If I buy something in a shop that includes a free item, and that free item is faulty, the shop cannot simply say "well you paid nothing for the item so we're not giving you a replacement or refund" or "we will replace the faulty item, but with one of a lesser value".
I cannot find anything on the Amex website that states that the companion ticket is anything other than an identical product - and as an identical product, surely it comes with all the protection of EU261 that applies to the main ticket? If EU261 is not applicable to the companion ticket, this should be clearly stated in the terms and conditions relating to the voucher.
As others have said, it does almost certainly come with that protection, or at least other avenues under consumer law. BA's view of EC261 very rarely coincides with the actual application of the law ... so simply because BA try to deny compensation doesn't mean the MCOL route wouldn't be successful (and sadly mostly necessary).
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:28 am
  #145  
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Originally Posted by SilverSkier View Post
If EU261 is not applicable to the companion ticket, this should be clearly stated in the terms and conditions relating to the voucher.
EC261 is a EU Regulation enshrined via Statutory Instrument into UK law, and so Ts and Cs cannot just wash that away. Actually BA doesn't formally say EC261 doesn't apply - judging from the paperwork I've seen - and certainly pay the related cash components without quibble. However they have (initially) rejected the several calculations used by claimants for the voucher aspect. I'm not aware of BA ever succeeding in maintaining that in court, though BA have been successful via CEDR in this area.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:30 am
  #146  
 
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Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
This.

I trust the people on this board when they relay what someone at BA told them. But, I don't blankly trust what BA told them, either because they are far removed from the facts, or they are using their FT contacts to relay duff information. BA is no longer a company I trust.

Amongst all the "we don't know" statements, the undeniable perception is that the prevalence of reports of 241 passengers being downgraded has increased over the past year or so.

It could be that the perception is wrong, and is merely a result of a message being amplified in the FT/Head for Points vacuum, or it could be fact, but the perception is certainly there, as evidenced by some of the worried posts we've seen recently.
Shocking view. It's not like we're talking about a company that has been fined on more than one occasion for price fixing, oh...........
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:31 am
  #147  
 
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Originally Posted by YorkieFlyer View Post
I in theory would be content with requesting the next flight with seats in the same class, but who is then responsible for paying expenses and overnight accommodation? If we were to be downgraded from CW on our return from BGI on 2 January I note that J is full/potentially oversold for a week!
Appreciate it wouldn't work for everyone, but it would certainly incentivise BA to get you home.

If all BA services are booked out then I'd expect them to look at other carriers to get you home in comparable class, in as timely manner as possible. Similarly, I'd expect BA to provide duty of care, after all the problem is of their making..........they were the ones that overbooked the flight. They can't expect to break a contract with someone and not have consequences to pay!
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:42 am
  #148  
 
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BA's T&Cs "The Cardmember and their Companions must travel together at all times therefore must be booked onto the same flight and cabin class when travelling using a Companion Voucher."
Surely they are going against their own T&Cs by downgrading one of the 2 people travelling on a 241? Either they must travel together or they must not-they cant have it both ways.

It would be interesting if someone were to refuse a downgrade and show the T&Cs as stated above.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 7:49 am
  #149  
 
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Could be risky as both passengers could be downgraded. Although then the compensation question gets answered as the other one would definitely be due the comp.

It could result in throwing two people further down to lower cabins if there wasn't the space in CW for example for 2 downgrades.. which would be even less desirable of a situation.
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Old Aug 25, 17, 8:07 am
  #150  
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Originally Posted by john205 View Post
It could result in throwing two people further down to lower cabins if there wasn't the space in CW for example for 2 downgrades.. which would be even less desirable of a situation.
BA would downgrade the F pax to the cabin where there are free seats for them.

They won't downgrade CW passengers to make way for an F downgrade as they would have to reimburse the CW passengers for their downgrade as well as the F passenger.
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