Is it just me or are BA really starting to suck all of the joy out of flying lately?
Feb 19, 2015, 4:30 am
#46
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: London
Programs: BA LTGold; LH Senator; HHGold; Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 1,370
Yes, there have been a lot of Groundhog Day moments lately on here.
The idea of lower cost products appeals to a lot of travellers. Bear in mind that FT is largely populated by middle-aged corporate types who belong to a certain financial demographic. Nothing wrong with that - even I'll turn into one in 15 years and I am sure my priorities and perspectives will change dramatically from where I am now - in my late 20s peeing into the wind no doubt.
I do have genuine sympathy for those who undertake regular travel for business and who feel short changed. There is no doubt that BA is sucking a lot of whatever scraps of joy were left out of the hard product.
BA has clearly laid out its stall of late. Personally I travel mainly short haul, mostly at the front of the bus but also down the back too. There are a surprising number of monied leisure travellers who don't feel the pinch as much as the road warriors. Oddly however, BAEC's latest changes hit that trance of leisure customers hardest - Silver bonus halved for example. Clearly on SH with retained bonus earning on I class fares and conspicuously low CE fares the focus is on the front of the bus for now. Whether BA can really crank up the soft product (or whether they want/need to) remains to be seen.
I still largely enjoy BA, but if I was passing through LHR four times a week I might feel differently.
The idea of lower cost products appeals to a lot of travellers. Bear in mind that FT is largely populated by middle-aged corporate types who belong to a certain financial demographic. Nothing wrong with that - even I'll turn into one in 15 years and I am sure my priorities and perspectives will change dramatically from where I am now - in my late 20s peeing into the wind no doubt.
I do have genuine sympathy for those who undertake regular travel for business and who feel short changed. There is no doubt that BA is sucking a lot of whatever scraps of joy were left out of the hard product.
BA has clearly laid out its stall of late. Personally I travel mainly short haul, mostly at the front of the bus but also down the back too. There are a surprising number of monied leisure travellers who don't feel the pinch as much as the road warriors. Oddly however, BAEC's latest changes hit that trance of leisure customers hardest - Silver bonus halved for example. Clearly on SH with retained bonus earning on I class fares and conspicuously low CE fares the focus is on the front of the bus for now. Whether BA can really crank up the soft product (or whether they want/need to) remains to be seen.
I still largely enjoy BA, but if I was passing through LHR four times a week I might feel differently.
Fact is nothing much has changed with BA J (and I will stick to J as this is the priority for most long-haul business travellers) . It's a consistent experience on all long-haul flights, and, while others are catching up, few can boast the same all-flat-bed J that BA can, or the route network, or the schedule. The comparisons to the ME 3 are all well and good, but most regular business travellers (see the thread about the cancelled flight from JNB over the weekend) have no intention to fly indirect with stop overs just to have a (subjectively) better quality nosebag. Its still airplane food at the end of the day.
The most vocal whingers on here seem to be:
1) Occasional luxury fliers (either paid or through Avios).
2) Those who value luxury over price and time
3) Those based in the UK regions who have more choice of 1 stop opportunities, and have felt disenfranchised by BA since the demise of BA Connect
4) BMI refugees who probably chose BMI on the basis of anyone but BA
This collective can come together regularly and in agreement that BA is rubbish, in some mutual yearning for perceived times-past, but which never really existed.
Sure, there is a lot more choice and in certain examples I would agree that some airlines do some things better.
BUT if the only thing keeping these people loyal to BA was the loyalty scheme in spite of their poor perceptions of what BA offers, its actually fantastic if the loyalty scheme downgrade is the final nail in the coffin. BA lose some low value customers that are increasingly hard to please; these people are free to travel with the airlines they actually want; and we on this forum should hopefully see less whinging threads, and return to the more practical business of getting the best out of our travel with BA.
Feb 19, 2015, 4:32 am
#47
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: London
Programs: BA LTGold; LH Senator; HHGold; Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 1,370
That's wishful thinking. If people were really leaving BA would have reacted and we'd see it in passenger numbers.
I think the first to complain are people who travel on employers/clients' dime. They can't vote with their wallets so they think that complaining on a public forum will change something. No, it won't. Leisure travellers like me are fine with BA as it is. Let's just look how much cheaper it is to fly WTP/CW, even WT, now than a few years ago. All I see in CW is a comfortable way to travel (the seat, and I can confirm that one does not need to be an Olympic gymnast to get out of a window seat) - I do not expect pampering and gourmet meals. People's expectations are high...very high...like from another era. I want cheaper prices so if that means no hot towel which I always refuse (what's it for anyway?) or less choice in club kitchen (I have not used it once in 8 years) I am fine with it.
People get spoiled really quickly. For most, travelling anything but Y is an unachievable dream, and when you travel in WTP you can see how much better CW is, but when you travel CW all the time suddenly you want it to be F.
If I see a WTP seat in CW the next time I fly I'd be outraged, but in 8 years of flying CW I have not noticed the colour or shape of the tray or linen or the vintage of wines or whether or not hot towel was offered to me - because I don't care. They don't define comfortable travel for me. I only read about these things on this forum, and even then I have hard time picturing what is it that people are complaining about so passionately.
Most people judge airlines by overall comfort rather than individual components, and BA remains a comfortable airline to fly.
In a way, any business class seat nowadays is a luxurious way to travel. What can be more luxurious than a bed on the plane? And many refuse to pay for it when they are travelling with their families on vacation rather than for work...
I think the first to complain are people who travel on employers/clients' dime. They can't vote with their wallets so they think that complaining on a public forum will change something. No, it won't. Leisure travellers like me are fine with BA as it is. Let's just look how much cheaper it is to fly WTP/CW, even WT, now than a few years ago. All I see in CW is a comfortable way to travel (the seat, and I can confirm that one does not need to be an Olympic gymnast to get out of a window seat) - I do not expect pampering and gourmet meals. People's expectations are high...very high...like from another era. I want cheaper prices so if that means no hot towel which I always refuse (what's it for anyway?) or less choice in club kitchen (I have not used it once in 8 years) I am fine with it.
People get spoiled really quickly. For most, travelling anything but Y is an unachievable dream, and when you travel in WTP you can see how much better CW is, but when you travel CW all the time suddenly you want it to be F.
If I see a WTP seat in CW the next time I fly I'd be outraged, but in 8 years of flying CW I have not noticed the colour or shape of the tray or linen or the vintage of wines or whether or not hot towel was offered to me - because I don't care. They don't define comfortable travel for me. I only read about these things on this forum, and even then I have hard time picturing what is it that people are complaining about so passionately.
Most people judge airlines by overall comfort rather than individual components, and BA remains a comfortable airline to fly.
In a way, any business class seat nowadays is a luxurious way to travel. What can be more luxurious than a bed on the plane? And many refuse to pay for it when they are travelling with their families on vacation rather than for work...
Feb 19, 2015, 4:37 am
#48
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ATL
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 200
There are plenty of threads that cover BA's recent changes and decisions, and I think that the general direction of all of them seems to be "let's try other carriers if we can, especially OW carriers" - which is an understandable response.
I suppose everyone's circumstances are different - I don't know how things are in the corporate world in terms of flying policies, but I'm a cofounder of the company I work in - I can fly with who I want, when I want. I can also choose not to fly at all. Until relatively recently, even after this amount of years, there was to some extent a novelty factor to travel (and I would guess that I travel overseas to a longhaul direction once every 3-4 weeks generally). Alas, as this could be either east or west, BA is by far the easiest choice.
I could switch carrier, but I am starting to think I might just prefer to get extra staff to do it instead. Whilst I don't imagine that many people are in my situation, I was mostly wondering if people were starting to look at their (often gruelling) travel itineraries and thinking "life's too short"
Some really interesting comments from people in general. I would also totally agree that it is good evidence that a lack of competition is undoubtedly a very bad thing from a consumer perspective (even if I would like to have no competitors myself!)
Feb 19, 2015, 4:57 am
#49
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold, AA EXP
Posts: 1,140
As a leisure traveller (and obviously paying myself), I assumed I was possibly more inclined to notice and appreciate the differences in seats, cabins, food and service across airlines. When I used to travel for business more than I do now it was a means of getting from A to B and I would largely be working or sleeping on the aircraft so I would notice much less beyond the seat, bed etc.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:03 am
#50
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LHR T5 is about as messy as ever; the security dog and pony show at LHR is about the same mess as it has been for some years now, but more passport control checks in the future could make that part of the picture even worse; the planes are more packed with more seats; and the lounges ever more packed with more people even as the food in the lounges is way worse than it used to be even a handful of years ago.
Glorified flying bus service from BA has become less glorified.
The notion of short-haul flying being a joy isn't really there like it used to be. It's increasingly just about the flying bus service destination.
Glorified flying bus service from BA has become less glorified.
The notion of short-haul flying being a joy isn't really there like it used to be. It's increasingly just about the flying bus service destination.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:13 am
#52
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 740
To be honest, apart from overnight flights, where I just want to sleep, I'd be most happy with a decent size screen, a games console with loads of games, and a supply of beer. And a lamb jalfrezi somewhere in the middle. It would be much better than the so-called "gourmet" food and expensive booze, which, let's face it, isn't that great.
It would also cost a lot less, giving me more dosh to spend at my destination.
It would also cost a lot less, giving me more dosh to spend at my destination.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:15 am
#53
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
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That's interesting but my personal feeling as a leisure traveller is that I have the flexibility to choose the airline and schedule I want, and to a certain extent, the time to choose a routing that may be longer in order to select a preferred airline etc. It's that combination that has led me move further and further away from BA in the last couple of years.
As a leisure traveller (and obviously paying myself), I assumed I was possibly more inclined to notice and appreciate the differences in seats, cabins, food and service across airlines. When I used to travel for business more than I do now it was a means of getting from A to B and I would largely be working or sleeping on the aircraft so I would notice much less beyond the seat, bed etc.
As a leisure traveller (and obviously paying myself), I assumed I was possibly more inclined to notice and appreciate the differences in seats, cabins, food and service across airlines. When I used to travel for business more than I do now it was a means of getting from A to B and I would largely be working or sleeping on the aircraft so I would notice much less beyond the seat, bed etc.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:18 am
#54
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Londinium
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 930
It's all a matter of perspective. The lounges aren't amazing, but if you've ever flown with a US carrier they don't seem bad. Yes, they can be crowded, but the number of people who remain loyal in order to gain lounge access helps subsidise them for everyone else.
Meanwhile on AA, elites don't get lounge access at all on flights within North America, as its a paid membership.
The in-flight catering isn't great, but I whenever I find myself on LH SH it's no better. They'll give you a small cup of wine instead of the 175ml bottle and a disgusting sandwich. In the US you get crisps and a non-alcoholic beverage.
My only real objections are T5 security (which makes no sense to me) and the inconsistency of cabin crew attitude. I feel like for every return journey I'm going to get one leg with "Good BA" and one with a battle axe FA who snarls if you ask for a cube of ice.
Meanwhile on AA, elites don't get lounge access at all on flights within North America, as its a paid membership.
The in-flight catering isn't great, but I whenever I find myself on LH SH it's no better. They'll give you a small cup of wine instead of the 175ml bottle and a disgusting sandwich. In the US you get crisps and a non-alcoholic beverage.
My only real objections are T5 security (which makes no sense to me) and the inconsistency of cabin crew attitude. I feel like for every return journey I'm going to get one leg with "Good BA" and one with a battle axe FA who snarls if you ask for a cube of ice.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:24 am
#55
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: UK
Programs: I go wherever the content takes me.
Posts: 5,698
Feb 19, 2015, 5:27 am
#56
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: BAEC Silver, IHG Diamond
Posts: 7,780
I don't fly every day or week like a lot of people here so I'm probably not quite as "bored" by the same thing week in week out.
I enjoy flying and tend to make the most of it when I'm going somewhere.
BA's loyalty scheme is great for me. I can fly, shop at Tesco, stay in hotels etc. and earn Avios and these have allowed me to fly to various places around the world in cabins I couldn't ordinarily afford or want to pay ££££ for for very little.
I haven't flown a lot of OW partners such as Qatar but when you see their brand new aircraft with gleaming cabins, stylish seating, lounges etc. and they're quite often more convenient route wise (or fly to where you want to go with or without a connecting flight), they do look more attractive and flaws in a 10 year old plus CW cabin do show up and make you see things in a different light.
(Ok, things might be 100% as rosy as they look in trip reports, publicity photos, reviews etc. but any change is as good as a rest - is that the correct phrase?)
Coupled with BA charging £££ for the joy of passing through LHR (or ex-UK) and a lot of other places that others don't charge for, they're not exactly doing themselves any favours compared to their competition.
Sure some people, as mentioned, just want a seat / bed and will pay £2k for 4 hours sleep, but at the end of the day, I personally want the experience. I'd just fly Y if all I wanted was a seat and a basic meal - sometimes I want the bells & whistles that not just myself expects from a business or first cabin.
On the other hand, these cheap fares ex-DUB make things enjoyable. I do like being able to save £100s by booking a cheap RFS and then flying exactly the same planes as if I'd started at LHR. I can definitely overlook flaws when saving a lot of money and getting all the benefits.
I enjoy flying and tend to make the most of it when I'm going somewhere.
BA's loyalty scheme is great for me. I can fly, shop at Tesco, stay in hotels etc. and earn Avios and these have allowed me to fly to various places around the world in cabins I couldn't ordinarily afford or want to pay ££££ for for very little.
I haven't flown a lot of OW partners such as Qatar but when you see their brand new aircraft with gleaming cabins, stylish seating, lounges etc. and they're quite often more convenient route wise (or fly to where you want to go with or without a connecting flight), they do look more attractive and flaws in a 10 year old plus CW cabin do show up and make you see things in a different light.
(Ok, things might be 100% as rosy as they look in trip reports, publicity photos, reviews etc. but any change is as good as a rest - is that the correct phrase?)
Coupled with BA charging £££ for the joy of passing through LHR (or ex-UK) and a lot of other places that others don't charge for, they're not exactly doing themselves any favours compared to their competition.
Sure some people, as mentioned, just want a seat / bed and will pay £2k for 4 hours sleep, but at the end of the day, I personally want the experience. I'd just fly Y if all I wanted was a seat and a basic meal - sometimes I want the bells & whistles that not just myself expects from a business or first cabin.
On the other hand, these cheap fares ex-DUB make things enjoyable. I do like being able to save £100s by booking a cheap RFS and then flying exactly the same planes as if I'd started at LHR. I can definitely overlook flaws when saving a lot of money and getting all the benefits.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:45 am
#57
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Doesn't the joy get sucked out of any activity as the experience becomes routine and no longer exciting and new?
Often the level of happiness realised is the difference between the expected and actual experience.
Sure, the product is clearly being cut back in some places to reduce costs, but isn't the much larger factor here the fact that it's just impossible to attain the same level of joy as when those experiences of CW/F, new lounges etc were, well just simply new?
I've flown CX in J, and sure the seats, IFE etc are better than BA's typical CW but aren't all these posts of "abandoning BA and switching to Cathay, Singapore, Emirates etc" more a desparate cry to try to relive those experiences of when it was all new than a rational response to minor changes in the product itself?
And even if there is an airline out there which is the promised land, it will seem good for a while, but mainly because it's different, to start with at least. And then that will become routine, and niggles which are minor in the big scheme of things become annoying.
All just human nature at the end of the day?
Often the level of happiness realised is the difference between the expected and actual experience.
Sure, the product is clearly being cut back in some places to reduce costs, but isn't the much larger factor here the fact that it's just impossible to attain the same level of joy as when those experiences of CW/F, new lounges etc were, well just simply new?
I've flown CX in J, and sure the seats, IFE etc are better than BA's typical CW but aren't all these posts of "abandoning BA and switching to Cathay, Singapore, Emirates etc" more a desparate cry to try to relive those experiences of when it was all new than a rational response to minor changes in the product itself?
And even if there is an airline out there which is the promised land, it will seem good for a while, but mainly because it's different, to start with at least. And then that will become routine, and niggles which are minor in the big scheme of things become annoying.
All just human nature at the end of the day?
I'd also add that for many people, flying is a means to an end (getting somewhere) rather than an end in itself.
I'd also add that if people do not like it then vote with their or their corporate dollar (but few will).
Finally, I'd suggest that the overwhelming sense of entitlement amongst a few FTs is totally unrepresentative of the majority of BA PAX
Feb 19, 2015, 5:47 am
#58
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,503
I don't find flying with BA a joyless experience in itself. I rather enjoy flying! Well, it's probably the more general experience of travelling, not the inherent joys of flying BA specifically.
There are better carriers out there but BA's route network, if you are based in London, is its strong card. I don't think the overall offering has actually gone 'bad' even though it has got relatively worse than it was. Imagine if you were flying CW for the first time (pushing aside the cost for one moment). Although you probably wouldn't be wowed you'd still think it was pretty good. Well, I think so anyway.
Problem is, the bread 'n butter for BA are their regular flyers. The people who do notice the small incremental changes for the worse.
One thing I really wish BA would do, instead of window-dressing the removal of something as an enhancement, is be honest about it. If they started by saying some set of catering changes were done, first and foremost to keep their costs down to avoid increasing the fares we pay, I'd have much more respect for them.
There are better carriers out there but BA's route network, if you are based in London, is its strong card. I don't think the overall offering has actually gone 'bad' even though it has got relatively worse than it was. Imagine if you were flying CW for the first time (pushing aside the cost for one moment). Although you probably wouldn't be wowed you'd still think it was pretty good. Well, I think so anyway.
Problem is, the bread 'n butter for BA are their regular flyers. The people who do notice the small incremental changes for the worse.
One thing I really wish BA would do, instead of window-dressing the removal of something as an enhancement, is be honest about it. If they started by saying some set of catering changes were done, first and foremost to keep their costs down to avoid increasing the fares we pay, I'd have much more respect for them.
Feb 19, 2015, 5:50 am
#59
Join Date: May 2009
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 769
It'll get better one day - but only when it has to. Other carriers in the West have only recently started to up their game - the like of AF, KL and LH have only just introduced flat beds in business class for example. BA are just milking the current situation for all it's worth.
Feb 19, 2015, 6:01 am
#60
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ipswich
Posts: 7,543
I'm certainly feeling a little jaded these days with travel and BA plays a part in that for sure. But they're not the only contributor.
Just as BA is continually 'enhancing' the experience, so are my clients. Most are large global brands that now impose very mean travel policies (a number are Y only for just about any level) on their suppliers and I'm getting increasingly weary of fighting for small victories such as being allowed to pay for my own upgrades(!) or book my own tickets so I have a fighting chance of UuA now and again.
If I look at it end to end, the whole business of getting from A to B is a lot more hassle, less comfortable and takes more time to organise than it did 10 years ago.
But it's also much cheaper and to suppose the two are not connected would be naive.
Just as BA is continually 'enhancing' the experience, so are my clients. Most are large global brands that now impose very mean travel policies (a number are Y only for just about any level) on their suppliers and I'm getting increasingly weary of fighting for small victories such as being allowed to pay for my own upgrades(!) or book my own tickets so I have a fighting chance of UuA now and again.
If I look at it end to end, the whole business of getting from A to B is a lot more hassle, less comfortable and takes more time to organise than it did 10 years ago.
But it's also much cheaper and to suppose the two are not connected would be naive.