1010101

Whether it's propping up Flybe or something else, the government needs to step in to keep these routes going. They already subsidise the railways to the tune of billions and the Flybe routes are equally vital connections to many remote parts of the country.

And WW again showing what a dislikeable man he is with his comments in the press today.

irmster

no wonder BA is now so unpopular in the UK. Slashes regional routes, buys BMI and slashes more regional routes, now trying to ensure Flybe goes under.

AFAIK, no state aid has actually been given to Flybe anyway, so I'm not sure what IAG are hoping to achieve. They are not exactly offering to replace any of these routes which are essential for non London connections in the UK.

NickB

If HMRC allows Flybe to defer payment of APD, as has been reported in the press, this does constitute state aid.

[edit]:ion closer inspection, t would appear that this is just application of the normal scheme available to all taxpayers in difficulty rather than a specific measure for FlyBe, in which case it would not constitute state aid.

tobsw

I believe that airlines are a bit different... it could be interpreted that Government is interfering in the free market.

NickB

How so?
But you could say the same in any industry. Any kind of state aid in any branch of industry is an interference with the market. I struggle to see what is special about airlines.

Anyway, for there to be state aid, there must be a selective advantage to a specific business or group/category of businesses. If a facility is available to everyone, it is not state aid (unless it is applied, in practice, in a discriminatory manner).

tobsw

These arrangements are common for companies that are struggling to pay their tax, but unusual when it comes to duty payments.

HIDDY

All depends on how 'vital' they are. I wouldn't say any Flybe route in England is as vital as say some of the remoter routes in Scotland Loganair serve.

NickB

This strikes me as a distinction without a difference. I cannot see any reason of principle as to why excise duty payments should be treated any different to, say, VAT payments.

krispy84

Unfair to WW IMHO. He’s under no obligation to consider FlyBe’s fortunes or UK domestic non-London air routes. He is obliged to consider, and act on, issues relevant to IAG’s financial performance.

tigertanaka

How about NCL-SOU? - just to pick one I use occasionally. Not vital but 117,000 pax used the route last year.

• Train: 5 hours 20 minutes on the train (including the tube across London). A direct train takes about 5 hours 45 minutes (but there are only two a day).
• Car: 330 miles by road or 5 hours 30 minutes (without breaks)
• Plane: 1 hour 20 minutes, flight at 08:50, arrive at 10:10. Time for a pretty full day of meetings and then back at 18:45 and land back in NCL at 20:00

Train and car both require an overnight stay in Southampton. No way am I at 100% after taking 6 hours in the car to get to the South coast so a one day business trip becomes a full two days. With a flight connection, I would consider working on a project that required weekly meetings in Southampton - no way am I wasting that sort of travel time on the train or in the car.

EXT-MAN, MAN-EDI, NQY-LHR are other thin routes that are under 300 miles which are really important to regionally based businesses, not to mention the longer connections between Scotland and CWL/EXT/SOU that are provided by BE. I find it hard to believe that anyone apart from Loganair would be seriously interested in taking any of these on and for that reason I believe the government is correct in providing them with support.

Vinotraveller

I had to escort my mother from EDI - SOU by rail when I took her on a Cunard cruise 18 months ago because she has a fear of flying. Even travelling 1st Class and using Uber Lux for the transfer between KX and Waterloo it was a long slow journey. The lack of a proper dining car on the train from Scotland (bring back GNER!) meant we didn’t get to eat or drink well either. And of course we had to stay the night in Southampton. I was somewhat jealous of my wife and sister who travelled a day later on the Flybe service and met us at the boat!

So these routes are pretty important for both business and leisure.

Ldnn1

I think your anecdote shows these routes are useful for certain people. I’m not sure it shows they are important.

wrp96

There are lots of useful routes that aren't truly necessary. For the EDI-SOU, while it would make the journey much more rough, it wouldn't completely cut off access between the two, unlike the loss of some other routes. It's the difference between whether a community is truly cut off or if it's merely miserable.

rapidex

Except Flybe has stopped selling NQY=LHR after the end of March.

flatlander

Here is a more structured analysis prepared for UK Government in 2018, though it doesn't give very firm answers for specific routes in the UK:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...nnectivity.pdf