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AMEX doing "mass" shutdowns.

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Old Nov 6, 2019, 10:06 am
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by stc
The acronyms are kind of getting out of hand here. What is NAF (Hilton)? Never mind this should make the acronyms clearer (from the survey):

Manufactured spending in bonus categories
Multiple pay-over-times
Self-referrals
Self-referrals clawed back
Financial reviewed
Reset spend limits (credit cycling)
Multiple of the same card (excluding plat flavors)
No AF Hilton Aspire

but, why would POT (pay over time) ever be a reason for Shutdown? Presumably Amex gets interest out of that.
Not using the POT (I think) but collecting the 10k (?) MR for signing up for POT several times.
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 10:06 am
  #92  
 
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Originally Posted by stc
The acronyms are kind of getting out of hand here. What is NAF (Hilton)?

Why would POT (pay over time) ever be a reason for Shutdown? Presumably Amex gets interest out of that.
In another thread, it is mentioned that AMEX is adding trip delay and cancellation coverage to certain cards. AMEX also appears to be cracking down on the self-referrers. In this instance, I am definitely rooting for AMEX.

Last edited by GarlicFlyer; Nov 6, 2019 at 11:50 am
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 10:20 am
  #93  
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Originally Posted by stc
.... why would POT (pay over time) ever be a reason for Shutdown? Presumably Amex gets interest out of that.
American Express (USA) permits a maximum of five credit cards per person, plus an unspecified number of charge cards. If a person held five credit cards, and activated the POT feature on a number of charge cards, the cumulative revolving credit exposure might exceed the amount American Express is willing to loan.

They should have systems in place to prevent this from happening, but there may be some sequence of card opening/feature enrollment that the software did not detect, and the simple solution is closure.
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 10:41 am
  #94  
 
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Read through the Reddit thread and it's been stated that there was a loophole with the POT feature where people would call/message and ask for that feature to be disabled thus receiving another POT signup bonus at a later date. So that is what is most likely being referenced when they're stating "multiple".
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 10:56 am
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Adelphos
So 8 total shutdowns among a population that has pushes the envelope when it comes to maximizing benefits - is it safe to assume these "mass shutdown" events impact basically a negligible percent of cardholders?
8 out of 77 who responded to the survey. But if it was just "everyone please fill out this survey" with a link, there are still probably selection bias issues.
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 11:58 am
  #96  
 
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25k views numerous posts and just the OP reports shut down .... not really a mass shutdown event (assuming a lot of people take risks fly sometimes very close to the sun to maximize rewards)
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 1:03 pm
  #97  
 
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For something like this, there are many people who don't speak up, either out of shame, paranoia, pride, etc.
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 2:56 pm
  #98  
 
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I just hope I'm not on Amex's Santa's list of bad kids for having Vanilla Plat and Schwab Plat and returning something at Saks once after receiving the credit.
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 3:03 pm
  #99  
 
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Originally Posted by Zorak
8 out of 77 who responded to the survey. But if it was just "everyone please fill out this survey" with a link, there are still probably selection bias issues.
Where is this survey?
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 3:16 pm
  #100  
 
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Originally Posted by Gasolin
Where is this survey?
https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/co...heet/?sort=new
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Old Nov 6, 2019, 4:59 pm
  #101  
 
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Originally Posted by Diplomatico
AMEX could also (easily) view purchasing gift cards for reimbursement with their airline incidentals credits on the Plat/Gold to be gaming.

If AMEX were to instantly shut down the hundreds, if not thousands, of FTers who exploited that loophole for years I doubt we'd see some of these same self-righteous "that's what you get" responses. This forum would go into meltdown.
Rarely does anything someone says on the internet change my mind any more.

This, here? This is a really good post.
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Old Nov 7, 2019, 4:04 pm
  #102  
 
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Originally Posted by GarlicFlyer
Amex earned 1.6 Billion last quarter. I still don't see your argument.

Also, concerning the shutdowns, I would rather see the self-referrers and the gamers excluded if the end product offered to everyone else is better.
Agreed. Also, that is 1.6 Billion in Net Income, not Revenue. That's the good stuff - the money after they've paid all the COGS, Interest, expenses, etc. Amex is doing just fine financially.
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Old Nov 7, 2019, 4:07 pm
  #103  
 
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Originally Posted by blitzen
Not using the POT (I think) but collecting the 10k (?) MR for signing up for POT several times.
This.
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Old Nov 7, 2019, 7:31 pm
  #104  
 
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Interesting comments on DOC

I won’t say why or how, but I have insider info from RAT on what’s behind all this. This shutdown is part of a series of upcoming shutdowns. This week’s was a beta test for a new machine learning model specifically designed to target churning activity through unsupervised learning. Amex data scientists are improving an evolving neural network model that identifies churning behavior as it happens, and then assigns risk scores that factor in to anti bust-out or fraud scores. They’re treated the same, those all have different scores but their values affect your overall risk/reward score for Amex. If that overall score reaches a certain threshold (which they’re still experimenting with what exactly it will be), you will get shut down. What they’re doing is based on the same ML models that are used at Amex for AML and fraud prevention. The shutdowns will happen in small waves because one giant hit would be a massive drain on resources and disruption to their overall business, including drawing negative public attention outside of the churning community. That would scare people who are profitable but think they’re winning. They are also incrementing shutdown waves because of the resource usage it takes to identify accounts and assign a score based on the new indicated risk factors. When shutdowns are triggered, they begin combing through the new dataset. Right now, the model only looks back two years.

The clawbacks on self-referrals were a pilot program to this week’s events, not an entirety separate event. The same model that identified self-referrers was used for these shutdowns.

I’ll report back when I hear more info.

Also, I should add that if you had self-referrals clawed back, you’re already in the main data set. Those who were hit by the clawback were flagged as the highest priority for the model to comb through because of the strong correlation to proven churning/gaming behavior. Self-referrals were like a litmus test for who will be the low-hanging fruit for them to cut. As they tune the model to identify more positive activity correlations with churning, it will get more specific. Combing through level 3 data will become more prevalent in identifying churners, especially true if you have transactions from GCM and other obvious sites in your transaction history. If you were hit in the clawback but weren’t shut down this time, be cautious that you’re in their crosshairs. From what I’ve learned about the model, the inferred course of action here to avoid a shutdown is to not do anything with Amex except organic spend on your existing cards. Don’t carry a balance, no more MS, and no new cards. Keep in mind that the anti-churning model is fundamentally based on the neural architecture of their anti-fraud model.

PS I’ve read many comments loosly speculating about what RAT is. RAT isn’t a bunch of guys in India who are manually combing through the accounts with high MR balances, or checking referral sources for validity, etc.. This isn’t true. “RAT” is two data science and machine learning engineers in Phoenix who transitioned from the Amex fraud prevention team. There are two other engineers who have shared responsibilities with RAT and other anti-fraud teams.

The Hilton Aspire no AF link had absolutely nothing to do with these shutdowns. It’s a pure coincidence. The portfolio of recommended accounts to be shut down was sent off for approval more than a week ago. RAT doesn’t shut down accounts. They provide tranches of customer accounts suspected of abuse – along with correlating data. Those tranches go to evaluation from non-engineering management; who are the decision makers on shutting down a tranch of accounts or enacting other penalties. This is new to them and it’s somewhat uncharted territory, the speculations on here and on Reddit that they’re winging it are accurate. Their plan is to cut losses and effectively disable Amex churning first, then deal with the fallout afterwards. They’re legally within their rights so shutdown approvals are not made on a legal basis.
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Last edited by mia; Nov 8, 2019 at 3:34 am Reason: Formatting
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Old Nov 7, 2019, 8:56 pm
  #105  
 
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Reminds me of an Art Bell conspiracy theory. Nice fairy tale.
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