[OFFER DEAD, MR accounts frozen, some bonuses clawed back] 100k Amex Plat (USA)
Oct 10, 2016, 3:09 pm
#1336
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 41
Arbitrate. Amex has in their possession the records of who previously held which card(s). You say you received a targeted offer within your Amex online account, and confirmed with an Amex representative that you were eligible for the offer despite having previously held a card. Furthermore, this was an offer in your Amex online account. This means Amex had all your personal information, including SSN, readily available, and could easily use that information to verify your eligibility before sending you the offer. This wasn't some bulk marketing list with only a few details, where Amex could try to say "we didn't have enough information (like SSN) to verify one's eligibility." If Amex's left hand doesn't communicate with the right hand, that shouldn't be your problem. This sounds to me like an unfair and deceptive practice, and that's the argument I would use if I were in your position.
A basic JAMS arbitration can cost upwards of $20k, and you should read the JAMS Consumer Minimum Standards regarding who is responsible for those fees. You're presumably seeking 100,000 MR, which I doubt costs Amex more than $1,500 even if transferred to an airline partner (and this probably overstates the cost). My non-lawyer opinion is that Amex's position is untenable. Do you think they want to spend $20k+ arbitrating a shaky (on their end) case, or pay you ~$1k worth of points to make this go away?
Also, given how egregious Amex's behavior appears to be, I'd be inclined to push the envelope on damages, if I were in your position. Check your state's UDAP law to see if you'd have a reasonable basis to ask for more.
A basic JAMS arbitration can cost upwards of $20k, and you should read the JAMS Consumer Minimum Standards regarding who is responsible for those fees. You're presumably seeking 100,000 MR, which I doubt costs Amex more than $1,500 even if transferred to an airline partner (and this probably overstates the cost). My non-lawyer opinion is that Amex's position is untenable. Do you think they want to spend $20k+ arbitrating a shaky (on their end) case, or pay you ~$1k worth of points to make this go away?
Also, given how egregious Amex's behavior appears to be, I'd be inclined to push the envelope on damages, if I were in your position. Check your state's UDAP law to see if you'd have a reasonable basis to ask for more.
Oct 10, 2016, 4:05 pm
#1337
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 599
Sent out Notice of Claim 10/30, just received an email last weekend that my dispute has been received and is being investigated. I called to discuss the status of the dispute and to to get an idea of how long it would take to be resolved. I was told that I would be informed within 30 days. Too bad the BA transfer bonus ends today.
The best part is that at the end of the call, the representative asked, "before we end our call, would you like to consider adding any authorized users to your account so that you can earn rewards from their purchases?" No thanks, I think I'd like access to the points I already have before I try to earn any more.
The best part is that at the end of the call, the representative asked, "before we end our call, would you like to consider adding any authorized users to your account so that you can earn rewards from their purchases?" No thanks, I think I'd like access to the points I already have before I try to earn any more.
It won't help IMO.
The one and only successful datapoint in this thread we have of someone getting their clawed 100k back is when they initiated JAMS mediation. I would recommend you do the same. Mediation vai JAMS is completely free for us (since Amex pays the fees for mediator, and its likely they wouldn't think its worth their money to do so).
No legal requirement but you likely won't get your 100k back by just sending them a nastygram without the force of law behind it.
Oct 10, 2016, 9:40 pm
#1338
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 36
The claims notice in my case simply resulted in a callback from some Amex CSR saying the same reasons as told in CPFB ("because you closed/downgraded account").
It won't help IMO.
The one and only successful datapoint in this thread we have of someone getting their clawed 100k back is when they initiated JAMS mediation. I would recommend you do the same. Mediation vai JAMS is completely free for us (since Amex pays the fees for mediator, and its likely they wouldn't think its worth their money to do so).
No legal requirement but you likely won't get your 100k back by just sending them a nastygram without the force of law behind it.
It won't help IMO.
The one and only successful datapoint in this thread we have of someone getting their clawed 100k back is when they initiated JAMS mediation. I would recommend you do the same. Mediation vai JAMS is completely free for us (since Amex pays the fees for mediator, and its likely they wouldn't think its worth their money to do so).
No legal requirement but you likely won't get your 100k back by just sending them a nastygram without the force of law behind it.
Oct 11, 2016, 12:51 am
#1339
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 599
Oct 11, 2016, 9:06 am
#1340
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: Enough
Posts: 961
That's not totally correct. You may be liable for a portion of the mediator's costs equivalent to your jurisdiction's small claims filing fee.
Oct 11, 2016, 9:40 am
#1341
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: AZ
Posts: 250
If this is any more than an isolated incident, I hope a CFPB enforcement action is forthcoming.
It sounds like you're confusing mediation and arbitration (they are different). For a consumer-initiated JAMS arbitration under the JAMS consumer rules, the consumer pays $250 and the company pays the remaining costs. The arbitration agreement may provide more favorable terms (for example, under some agreements, the company pays all costs, including the $250). I'm not familiar with the mediation aspect and how those rules differ, but other posters above me seem to have covered that well.
Oct 11, 2016, 9:45 am
#1342
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 48,959
Oct 11, 2016, 11:45 am
#1343
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 599
Cardmember agreement: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/c..._06_30_New.pdf
It says "Before beginning mediation, you or we must first send a claim notice. Within 30 days after sending or receiving a claim notice,
you or we may submit the claim to JAMS (1-800-352-5267, jamsadr.com) or the
American Arbitration Association ("AAA") (1-800-778-7879, adr.org) for mediation. We will pay the fees of the mediator"
It says "Before beginning mediation, you or we must first send a claim notice. Within 30 days after sending or receiving a claim notice,
you or we may submit the claim to JAMS (1-800-352-5267, jamsadr.com) or the
American Arbitration Association ("AAA") (1-800-778-7879, adr.org) for mediation. We will pay the fees of the mediator"
Oct 11, 2016, 3:25 pm
#1344
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 3,682
Also whether, with or without specific authority from Amex, the growing number of data points regarding Amex employees' statements, if accurate, amount to a pattern for which Amex can be held accountable.
Oct 11, 2016, 7:06 pm
#1345
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PWM
Programs: AA Plat
Posts: 1,336
I was hoping the Claim Notice would be sufficient to get my points back. Well actually, I was originally hoping Amex would "do the right thing" without me having to get involved.
Thankfully I'm sitting at -100k and not at 0
Oct 11, 2016, 7:34 pm
#1346
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 36
It sounds like you're confusing mediation and arbitration (they are different). For a consumer-initiated JAMS arbitration under the JAMS consumer rules, the consumer pays $250 and the company pays the remaining costs. The arbitration agreement may provide more favorable terms (for example, under some agreements, the company pays all costs, including the $250). I'm not familiar with the mediation aspect and how those rules differ, but other posters above me seem to have covered that well.
Oct 13, 2016, 11:55 am
#1347
Join Date: Dec 2003
Programs: AA Plat Pro, United Silver, Marriott LTT, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, IHG Platinum
Posts: 1,120
Can Amex do anything about a negative MR balance after clawback? I can't find anything in the card terms & conditions that address it. If you do an internet search you'll find people claiming Amex has the right to charge the cardholder 2.5 cents for each negative point, but as far as I can tell, those were terms from a now-discontinued point borrowing scheme Amex used to run.
ETA: we still have open accounts which we just plan to use for Amex offers, since any normal points earned would just go against the negative balance.
ETA: we still have open accounts which we just plan to use for Amex offers, since any normal points earned would just go against the negative balance.
Oct 13, 2016, 1:45 pm
#1348
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
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Posts: 57,085
I think Amex is generally the one with the weak legal position in these cases. They make a targeted offer to a previous cardholder, offering a particular bonus if they get the card and meet a certain spending requirement. And in the T&C, they say the bonus will not apply to previous cardholders. These are inconsistent terms. Such inconsistencies are generally resolved against the party responsible for them -- in this case, Amex.
Oct 13, 2016, 6:26 pm
#1349
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,269
I think Amex is generally the one with the weak legal position in these cases. They make a targeted offer to a previous cardholder, offering a particular bonus if they get the card and meet a certain spending requirement. And in the T&C, they say the bonus will not apply to previous cardholders. These are inconsistent terms. Such inconsistencies are generally resolved against the party responsible for them -- in this case, Amex.
Oct 13, 2016, 7:10 pm
#1350
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Join Date: Feb 2001
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Posts: 57,085
Doubt is appropriate. It's easy to dismiss another's legal position as a surefire loser or a declare it to be a slam-dunk winner. But experienced litigators are usually reluctant to do that. We've seen the supposed losers win, and the surefire winners lose.