Thanks American, your upgrade "enhancement" has destroyed EXP for me!
Mar 15, 2008, 11:28 am
#181
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: EXP 1MM
Posts: 117
Definitely good points. I do believe that you missed the change with your first post, but this last post is very astute, IMO. Those who care enough to "want it" know the check-in option and what it can do. After all, it was published on the AA site. There are certainly a lot of FTers who do not like this (myself included). The question is...how many people, overall, are really annoyed by this- people who worked the check-in angle. I think it may not be many...and the change may work for more people than it hurts. Sadly.
Cheers.
Cheers.
J...
Mar 15, 2008, 12:53 pm
#182
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: stl
Programs: AA LT Plat/8.1mm now with 1350 miles left in my account and proud of it.. SPG LT Titanium.
Posts: 3,088
If they're not FTers, they don't know about any 4 hour issues. Likely, the don't know about the 24 hour OLCI, even though it was listed on the AA website with regard to upgrade priority. All they know is that they requested upgrades when they booked well in advance and did not get them. They probably don't know why, but weren't happy about it. I'm sure that most passengers would prefer the new system. Most people are either too ignorant/lazy/inefficient/clueless/important/self-important/etc to learn how systems work and how to take advantage of them. It is for these "sheeple" that the concept of "the level playing field" is appealing. Those with ingenuity want anything but a level playing field, provided they know the rules.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Mar 15, 2008, 1:02 pm
#183
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Amb Elite & LT Titanium, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,230
Maybe this is the problem too many people evaluating this from the marketing/sales side of this.
I'm a 'process' guy by profession and the old 'airport check-in' process never made sense to me.
Some one in AA or a consultant
for AA said, 'hey why do you make people re-check in at the airport to get on the UG list?' Then they did a little math and figured out if a GA needs to speak directly with 16 pax that want to be added to the airport list, and it takes them 1-2 minutes per request ..... they can 'save' 10,15,20 minutes per GA. If you reduce the time a GA is for UG requests you can reduce the overall staffing needs for GA's.
So somewhere AA made a decision that will ultimately reduce their operation costs.
Then the marketing guy comes a long as says 'hey we can spin this into an 'improvement' for the check in process for our elites'.
The next thing you know the Golds, Plats and EXP's get an e-mail telling them about this wonderful new improvement.
The reality of the industry is that almost every move is focused on either saving cost or enhancing revenue.
I'm a 'process' guy by profession and the old 'airport check-in' process never made sense to me.
Some one in AA or a consultant
for AA said, 'hey why do you make people re-check in at the airport to get on the UG list?' Then they did a little math and figured out if a GA needs to speak directly with 16 pax that want to be added to the airport list, and it takes them 1-2 minutes per request ..... they can 'save' 10,15,20 minutes per GA. If you reduce the time a GA is for UG requests you can reduce the overall staffing needs for GA's.So somewhere AA made a decision that will ultimately reduce their operation costs.
Then the marketing guy comes a long as says 'hey we can spin this into an 'improvement' for the check in process for our elites'.
The next thing you know the Golds, Plats and EXP's get an e-mail telling them about this wonderful new improvement.
The reality of the industry is that almost every move is focused on either saving cost or enhancing revenue.
Mar 15, 2008, 1:17 pm
#184
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: stl
Programs: AA LT Plat/8.1mm now with 1350 miles left in my account and proud of it.. SPG LT Titanium.
Posts: 3,088
[J...] With all due respect, if what you say is true, then there is a distinct lack of understanding on the part of AA employees regarding the new policy. See specific points below:
[J...] As a marketing guy, let me explain in detail how this actually whole policy change hurts AA, rightly or wrongly and only based upon my perception as a customer and presuming that my experiences to date are accurate with the actual policy and there is not an issue with training or otherwise.
Consider this... Within any given tier, there is a continuum of perceived customer value for upgrades. Some customers value them very much less and some value them much more. The value is roughly (or perhaps exactly) proportional to the effort required of the customer to secure the published benefit.
By having a "back door," AA provided, in essence, a pressure relief valve for those top tier customers that value the upgrade much higher than those that do not. In essence, this "back door," which is very widely known BTW, was available as a way of driving legacy business for top tier customers who value this individual benefit the most.
I personally have colleagues (EXP) who really don't care to take the time to make the 4 hour call, 24 hour check in, etc. So they clearly value this benefit less and will take what they get. They consider other tier benefits to have higher value. But I have other colleagues (e.g. me) that do value the upgrade much more highly than other tier benefits. I will make the extra effort based upon my perceived value of the upgrade - and I do travel business - meaning late bookings - as in I'm screwed.
With this change, my extra effort (as one who values upgrades highly) is no longer useful and frankly, my perception is that I receive less value for my dollar. Clearly those who value the upgrade less are randomly (or uniformly) placed ahead of those who value it much more. And clearly, this lessens the value for those who value this benefit more highly than others who do not.
Classical case of dumb marketing 101. Gerard - are you listening? One size fits all is stupid. You need to allow your tiers to differentiate within the tier.
So in the end, what does this mean? Do I abandon AA? Not this year, I'm already at 33k+ miles. But RDU is opening up terminal 2. Lot's of my colleagues swear by United. And I really do need to travel to APAC to see my old friends in China.
It's an axiom in my business that we only get a chance to get into a competitors account when business conditions change and they are always related to one of two items:
- Relationships (sales pissed somebody off really bad)
- Product offering (no longer competitive around the perceived customer value)
In this case, I perceive less customer value to me as EXP. I'll go lifetime gold in another month. Perhaps that will be good enough since the seats are the same - exit row.
I WILL look into other airlines at the end of this year. Will AA measure up? I don't know, but I do know this change has caused me to reevaluate their product. It is always better to have a satisfied customer than to have an unsatisfied or somewhat satisfied customer looking at a competitor.
What was that line in "Pretty Woman?" "Dumb! Dumb move." Something like that? Why can't my AAngels in the AC give me the seat I value on a standby and take the revenue? For an EXP, confirmed standby has basically no other value. Whoops - there goes the incremental revenue.
I'll be flying AE next week and then AA the week after and three weeks after and four weeks after. Next time I hear "Go see the GA" in an AC, I'll really make it a point to find another carrier. Enough already - and that's a sad thing for me to say, because I'm a great AA supporter.
J...
[J...] As a marketing guy, let me explain in detail how this actually whole policy change hurts AA, rightly or wrongly and only based upon my perception as a customer and presuming that my experiences to date are accurate with the actual policy and there is not an issue with training or otherwise.
Consider this... Within any given tier, there is a continuum of perceived customer value for upgrades. Some customers value them very much less and some value them much more. The value is roughly (or perhaps exactly) proportional to the effort required of the customer to secure the published benefit.
By having a "back door," AA provided, in essence, a pressure relief valve for those top tier customers that value the upgrade much higher than those that do not. In essence, this "back door," which is very widely known BTW, was available as a way of driving legacy business for top tier customers who value this individual benefit the most.
I personally have colleagues (EXP) who really don't care to take the time to make the 4 hour call, 24 hour check in, etc. So they clearly value this benefit less and will take what they get. They consider other tier benefits to have higher value. But I have other colleagues (e.g. me) that do value the upgrade much more highly than other tier benefits. I will make the extra effort based upon my perceived value of the upgrade - and I do travel business - meaning late bookings - as in I'm screwed.
With this change, my extra effort (as one who values upgrades highly) is no longer useful and frankly, my perception is that I receive less value for my dollar. Clearly those who value the upgrade less are randomly (or uniformly) placed ahead of those who value it much more. And clearly, this lessens the value for those who value this benefit more highly than others who do not.
Classical case of dumb marketing 101. Gerard - are you listening? One size fits all is stupid. You need to allow your tiers to differentiate within the tier.
So in the end, what does this mean? Do I abandon AA? Not this year, I'm already at 33k+ miles. But RDU is opening up terminal 2. Lot's of my colleagues swear by United. And I really do need to travel to APAC to see my old friends in China.
It's an axiom in my business that we only get a chance to get into a competitors account when business conditions change and they are always related to one of two items:
- Relationships (sales pissed somebody off really bad)
- Product offering (no longer competitive around the perceived customer value)
In this case, I perceive less customer value to me as EXP. I'll go lifetime gold in another month. Perhaps that will be good enough since the seats are the same - exit row.
I WILL look into other airlines at the end of this year. Will AA measure up? I don't know, but I do know this change has caused me to reevaluate their product. It is always better to have a satisfied customer than to have an unsatisfied or somewhat satisfied customer looking at a competitor.
What was that line in "Pretty Woman?" "Dumb! Dumb move." Something like that? Why can't my AAngels in the AC give me the seat I value on a standby and take the revenue? For an EXP, confirmed standby has basically no other value. Whoops - there goes the incremental revenue.
I'll be flying AE next week and then AA the week after and three weeks after and four weeks after. Next time I hear "Go see the GA" in an AC, I'll really make it a point to find another carrier. Enough already - and that's a sad thing for me to say, because I'm a great AA supporter.
J...
in terms of this being a dumb aa move i disagree completely. there are probably more people like me who will now give aa even more business because we know the upgrade system is fair and we will get that upgrade even more frequently. once again aa is taking care of it's best customers of which i am one.
once you reach lifetime gold i think you should absolutely take your business to united. if this is the type of thing that aggravates you then you should have plenty to post on the ual board because that airline does not know how to treat it's customers.
Mar 15, 2008, 6:49 pm
#185
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Amb Elite & LT Titanium, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,230
Again a cost saving move by AA spun to give the appearance that AA is doing something for it's customers.
This move lowers the number of hours required for GA's.
This move lowers the number of hours required for GA's.
Mar 15, 2008, 6:54 pm
#186
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SJC/VCE
Programs: AA PLT (2.9+ MM), HH GLD, Hyatt Diamond, SPG PLT
Posts: 10,161
Then the new system should work very well for you. Book all your flights 330 days out and you'll be #1 on the list.
Mar 15, 2008, 7:13 pm
#187
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SEATTLE, WA USA
Programs: UAL, AA, AS, CX
Posts: 1,973
Then why not institute an upgrade policy based on fare class purchased to set the priority? You'd then be rewarding your highest paying passengers. Yes that would kinda put an end to my upgrades but should that not be the point of an airline searching for revenue and at the same time addressing loyalty?
Mar 15, 2008, 7:28 pm
#188
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SJC/VCE
Programs: AA PLT (2.9+ MM), HH GLD, Hyatt Diamond, SPG PLT
Posts: 10,161
Then why not institute an upgrade policy based on fare class purchased to set the priority? You'd then be rewarding your highest paying passengers. Yes that would kinda put an end to my upgrades but should that not be the point of an airline searching for revenue and at the same time addressing loyalty?
Mar 15, 2008, 7:31 pm
#189
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: AA EXP, AAirpass, & CK 2MM, MR Plat Premier, DL Plat, US Plat, UA RECOVERING GS
Posts: 2,620
Consider this... Within any given tier, there is a continuum of perceived customer value for upgrades. Some customers value them very much less and some value them much more. The value is roughly (or perhaps exactly) proportional to the effort required of the customer to secure the published benefit.
By having a "back door," AA provided, in essence, a pressure relief valve for those top tier customers that value the upgrade much higher than those that do not. In essence, this "back door," which is very widely known BTW, was available as a way of driving legacy business for top tier customers who value this individual benefit the most.
I personally have colleagues (EXP) who really don't care to take the time to make the 4 hour call, 24 hour check in, etc. So they clearly value this benefit less and will take what they get. They consider other tier benefits to have higher value. But I have other colleagues (e.g. me) that do value the upgrade much more highly than other tier benefits. I will make the extra effort based upon my perceived value of the upgrade - and I do travel business - meaning late bookings - as in I'm screwed.
By having a "back door," AA provided, in essence, a pressure relief valve for those top tier customers that value the upgrade much higher than those that do not. In essence, this "back door," which is very widely known BTW, was available as a way of driving legacy business for top tier customers who value this individual benefit the most.
I personally have colleagues (EXP) who really don't care to take the time to make the 4 hour call, 24 hour check in, etc. So they clearly value this benefit less and will take what they get. They consider other tier benefits to have higher value. But I have other colleagues (e.g. me) that do value the upgrade much more highly than other tier benefits. I will make the extra effort based upon my perceived value of the upgrade - and I do travel business - meaning late bookings - as in I'm screwed.
I'm sure I checked in 100+ times last year and in each of the previous years since I found FT. I did OLCI maybe 5% of the time. I care a lot about the upgrade, but I was too distracted, busy, etc etc to do the 24hr countdown.
I book over half of my tickets last minute. Probably 75% are <14 days. I still, however, welcome the changes as at least it creates a static ruleset. Sometimes those rules will be to my advantage, sometimes they won't, but at least I don't go to the airport kicking myself for letting X people ahead of me by, yet again, failting to OLCI at 24hrs.
Mar 15, 2008, 8:06 pm
#191
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: AA EXP / LT PLT / 3MM, Marriott LT Gold
Posts: 35,439
Then why not institute an upgrade policy based on fare class purchased to set the priority? You'd then be rewarding your highest paying passengers. Yes that would kinda put an end to my upgrades but should that not be the point of an airline searching for revenue and at the same time addressing loyalty?
Mar 15, 2008, 8:41 pm
#192
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: stl
Programs: AA LT Plat/8.1mm now with 1350 miles left in my account and proud of it.. SPG LT Titanium.
Posts: 3,088
the new system should work well for me as did the old system (although it had some issues which i believe have now been fixed). just to clarify my point, if i buy my ticket three days or 360 days in advance and request an upgrade then IMHO that should be that. i shouldn't have to worry about 24 hour OLCI, 4 hour loopholes, or someone who bought their ticket after me jumping me in the queue.
Mar 15, 2008, 9:26 pm
#193
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 737
Then why not institute an upgrade policy based on fare class purchased to set the priority? You'd then be rewarding your highest paying passengers. Yes that would kinda put an end to my upgrades but should that not be the point of an airline searching for revenue and at the same time addressing loyalty?
Upgrades are really another thing entirely. An earlier poster said nobody valued upgrades more than he did, and you can take that to the bank. My suspicion is that if you went to the bank you'd discover large numbers of people buying first or business class tickets outright that were ahead of you in this hypothetical line.
Mar 15, 2008, 9:45 pm
#194
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: stl
Programs: AA LT Plat/8.1mm now with 1350 miles left in my account and proud of it.. SPG LT Titanium.
Posts: 3,088
In all fairness they do this. It's a little more tricky in places but don't forget that the basic rule is that you pay more, you do indeed get into first class. It's called a first class ticket, and it is a time honored way of rewarding the highest paying passengers.
Upgrades are really another thing entirely. An earlier poster said nobody valued upgrades more than he did, and you can take that to the bank. My suspicion is that if you went to the bank you'd discover large numbers of people buying first or business class tickets outright that were ahead of you in this hypothetical line.
Upgrades are really another thing entirely. An earlier poster said nobody valued upgrades more than he did, and you can take that to the bank. My suspicion is that if you went to the bank you'd discover large numbers of people buying first or business class tickets outright that were ahead of you in this hypothetical line.
Mar 15, 2008, 9:51 pm
#195
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 737
Of course they are all related. I just think it's strange when people talk about how much money they spend, or how much they "value" (which is a financial term) upgrades, but somehow we should ignore that the desired result, a seat in F, is typically very easy to get. It just requires giving up something of value, money.
I think whoever posted the marketing explanation was on the mark. They old system rewarded people who "care" more. The new one doesn't. That's probably a bad thing on the margins, but really it's hard to see it as a massive difference.
Maybe it devalues EXP for a few. But it's marginal, and I think those who feel entitled to sit up front (and I like it too) should realize that money gets you there in a jiffy. And there's no real way to be a more valued customer, more important, more DYKWIA, than just spending more money.