Refunds for suspended flights

Old Mar 20, 2020, 11:23 pm
  #61  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Island, New Zealand
Programs: Krisflyer, Qantas Frequent Flyer, Air NZ Airpoints, Koru, NZ*S and former *G
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by b1m9t0
What do you expect them to do, just return your $13k? And the next guy? And the next guy? And when all the money is gone, what about the thousands of other people in line wanting their money back? Why not them? Because they didn't ask for their money back quick enough?
In short 'yes', I expect my $ back, and the next guy can expect the same.

It is not a question about whether I get my money back before someone else - you seem to be the one suggesting that, I am not and have not.

However when you pay a business for a service or goods and don't receive those then you should be refunded. That is a fairly basic principal.

Please consider that lots of people here will own or work in businesses that are struggling also. At the moment the effect on me is that my business is supporting the airline at a time when my future is also uncertain.

Air NZ will most likely need to raise further capital from shareholders in a few months time, things like negative cash flow from making refunds and paying costs with little corresponding revenue will make sure of that. No doubt we will all consider that at the time on it's merits - and logically the position of my business will have a bearing on whether I can/do support the airline with more capital, and the airfares I have outstanding so far will have a direct impact on that.

Last edited by ottiehund; Mar 20, 2020 at 11:30 pm
ottiehund is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 12:00 am
  #62  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by Jenky
So trying to get my head around when we can actually get refunds for tickets and not just credit. Who has managed to have this done for flights between April 1st and June 30th? Am I right in thinking as soon as March 31st rolls around and Jacinda prolongs the mandatory 14 day quarantine, etc that AirNZ will be required to update giving full refunds for any international tickets for travel from April 1st to however long the government pushes the date towards? For routes that are already cancelled we should be given refunds because of New Zealand consumer laws correct? Not just flight credit? I was supposed to be flying Auckland-Singapore-Koh Samui return April 21st to April 27th (This flight route is yet to be cancelled so just waiting for Jacinda to update the travel restriction dates). I then had flights May 21st to June 12th booked Auckland to Houston return. Both tickets having BP bookings. I'm really not much of a fan of the idea of AirNZ getting to hold on to thousands of my dollars.
Similar boat to you but earlier flights (early April), I am just waiting for the government travel advice to be extended and will then see what to do. Got an automated invitation to hold flights in credit but holding out for a refund. Their published policy in the FAQ for all flights affected by government restrictions is to refund if the flight is prior to 31 March, so suspect/hope this will just roll over.
znsm is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 2:33 am
  #63  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by ottiehund
In short 'yes', I expect my $ back, and the next guy can expect the same.

It is not a question about whether I get my money back before someone else - you seem to be the one suggesting that, I am not and have not.

However when you pay a business for a service or goods and don't receive those then you should be refunded. That is a fairly basic principal.

Please consider that lots of people here will own or work in businesses that are struggling also. At the moment the effect on me is that my business is supporting the airline at a time when my future is also uncertain.

Air NZ will most likely need to raise further capital from shareholders in a few months time, things like negative cash flow from making refunds and paying costs with little corresponding revenue will make sure of that. No doubt we will all consider that at the time on it's merits - and logically the position of my business will have a bearing on whether I can/do support the airline with more capital, and the airfares I have outstanding so far will have a direct impact on that.
I don't think you are appreciating the gravity of the current situation. Your attitude strikes me as similar to those posting on Facebook that certain measures aren't enough, that the Government or whatever other organisation should be catering to their special situation. The "what about"ers. At this stage we have to do what is best for the greater good, which unfortunately doesn't mean Air New Zealand specifically refunding your $13k and putting your and your business's needs above others.

You are completely right, that [in normal times] if you don't receive goods or services you have paid for you should be entitled to a refund. These are not normal times.
b1m9t0 is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:35 am
  #64  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NZ
Programs: NZ*E, QF-G, EK-P
Posts: 581
Not sure what to make of your comments.
I have three refundable tickets and I have pushed them out to dates later this year / early next and hopefully Air NZ will still be here and that is in part my investment into keeping them solvent by having some forward bookings.
I completely appreciate this an entirely unique time in our history and has a huge potential impact on the future of aviation and the wider western world - without falling for hyperbole.
But having said all of that.... if you cannot provide a service you are entitled to a refund - service not provided, money refunded - being insolvent or bankrupt changes the game, but Air NZ isn't, it is continuing to trade and take bookings - so no service = refund.
Its all about the rule of law - by all means declare a state of emergency or pass a law which changes the rules - and per your comment above about these been extraordinary times - I completely agree - but this hasn't happened....... so refund it is. I deliberately haven't asked for one for reasons I stated above, but if ottiehund wants one, what are the legal grounds for withholding it?
bce1 is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:38 am
  #65  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 926
How dare people telling me what I can and can’t do? 🤷🏾‍♀️
zqsn5678 is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:46 am
  #66  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Island, New Zealand
Programs: Krisflyer, Qantas Frequent Flyer, Air NZ Airpoints, Koru, NZ*S and former *G
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by b1m9t0
I don't think you are appreciating the gravity of the current situation. Your attitude strikes me as similar to those posting on Facebook ....... At this stage we have to do what is best for the greater good, which unfortunately doesn't mean Air New Zealand ....... putting your and your business's needs above others.
.
You say I don't get it, well I say you maybe you don't hear what I am saying either - I have never asked for putting my needs above others (nor do I think anyone else posting on here was suggesting that either), but with over $1 billion of prepaid fares we are not exactly in a group that is a minority or inconsequential! My business will survive, but that is not to say I wont be potentially severely hurt by what is going on, just as many many businesses and many employees will over the coming months.

I have actually put my money where my mouth is over the years by giving the airline capital in the past (that I could easily lose, but with equity investment that is always a risk so while it is never an expected outcome do you hear me complaining about that, no).

The greater good - well I have contributed many $ to the airline for freight and travel, over the last 3 decades, often despite them not being the cheapest option. I have always strived to support Air NZ and in the future will consider still doing so.

It is easy to preach that I have to do what is 'best for the greater good' - to that I would say have you done that? have you supported them at times of need in the past with capital? are you owed any money by them?.... maybe that might give you a different perspective and understanding where some of us are coming from.

We all want the airline to survive, and will do what we can I am sure to see that happen, as we are able to, however I expect to be treated fairly and not simply dismissed because they are in trouble and because they are bigger than me or their business is seen as more important than mine.

It seems to me we will need to agree to disagree on this (and while I could continue the debate doing so wont add anything to the forum) however I am sure there is one thing we will agree on - kia kaha Air NZ.
bce1 likes this.

Last edited by ottiehund; Mar 22, 2020 at 4:18 am
ottiehund is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:53 am
  #67  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by Jenky
Last post by me I promise. Would anyone by chance have AirNZ old conditions of carriage prior to their updated version on March 18th?
The previous version was issued 28 December 2019. The differences between that version and the 18 March 2020 version are a new section "10.6 What Air New Zealand can do if there is a public health or medical emergency"

If we have a concern about any Passengers health, a public health emergency is announced by any government or World Health Organisation or a medical emergency occurs we may:
  • cancel, divert or delay any flight
  • screen Passengers
  • refuse to carry or offload the Passenger(s) and their Baggage, even if they are already on board
  • isolate the Passenger(s) on board the aircraft and limit the inflight services
  • notify appropriate authorities such as the Police, Ministry of Health or Airport Security
  • perform any other action we consider necessary to provide a safe environment for Passengers and crew
You are responsible for complying with any immigration policies, government quarantine restrictions or conditions (including length of stay) that apply to your travel.
And that Section "15. When and how we give refunds" has changed substantially from:

Sometimes the cancellation, failure or misconnection is because of circumstances beyond our control. In these cases, you may be entitled to a travel credit instead of a refund, which will be valid for 12 months from the date your Ticket was originally issued. This credit will be for the value of the non-refundable part of your Ticket.
To (bold used to highlight changes):

Sometimes the cancellation, failure or misconnection is because of circumstances beyond our control. For example, the following circumstances may be beyond our control: a weather event, public health event (including epidemic / pandemic), airport or facility closures, medical emergencies, strike, terrorist act, governmental, regional or local authority restrictions, change in law. In these cases, you may be entitled to a travel credit instead of a refund, which will be valid for 12 months from the date your Ticket was originally issued (or in certain circumstances an extension may be separately agreed with us). This credit will be for the value of the unused non-refundable part of your Ticket.
Interestingly, technically the way that it was written before didn't exclude the used portion of your ticket when receiving a refund (although this was not the intent of the section before.

As an aside, the Civil Aviation Act provides that "A carrier is liable for damage caused by delay in the carriage of passengers.", however there are a number of exclusions to be aware of here which could likely be argued by Air NZ (force majeure). However an interesting fact is that under the Civil Aviation Act, the onus is on the carrier to prove that the delay was a result of matters outside the carrier‘s control.
codyc1515 is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:56 am
  #68  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Island, New Zealand
Programs: Krisflyer, Qantas Frequent Flyer, Air NZ Airpoints, Koru, NZ*S and former *G
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by bce1
Not sure what to make of your comments.
....... so refund it is. I deliberately haven't asked for one for reasons I stated above, but if ottiehund wants one, what are the legal grounds for withholding it?
Thanks for the comment - the reality is that Air NZ (hopefully they are around) will most likely see my money back, either through introducing new/additional capital if there is an equity raising in 6 months time (which the government support makes me believe there will be) or through rebooked airfares.

Legal arguments aside - While the world is closed for business, and I have no need to travel, I don't see why I should limit my options by committing to a 12 month credit, simple as that, my money is better off in my bank in the meantime rather than being locked away supporting someone else at my expense Clearly you and most other posters get that, thanks.

Last edited by ottiehund; Mar 21, 2020 at 1:48 pm Reason: Spelling corrected
ottiehund is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 4:59 am
  #69  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: New Zealand (when I'm home!)
Programs: Air NZ Elite
Posts: 1,209
I have tens of thousands of dollars in flights. I took the credit option for each of them. I want to support the airline as much as I can, it is extraordinary important for the well being of our country that Air NZ continues to exist, it would be an enormous tragedy if we were to lose them.
kiwifrequentflyer is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 5:19 am
  #70  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Auckland
Programs: NZ Elite Partner/Silver (in own right), PR Classic, QF Bronze, UA Member, VA Red
Posts: 1,548
to me the issue is whether there will an airline and or suitable options to use the credit at some time in the future

also even if we accept a holding in credit option as valid and acceptable, there is no reason the tax / airport / govt charges component is not refunded; that is not part of the $ they should have access
jeffrocowboy is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 1:47 pm
  #71  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 359
I’ve had many Business Class fares but never cancelled one - however are many/most Business Class booking usually mostly refundable by customer cancellation minus a fee?

If the consumer cancels the booking in this situation isn’t a refund the normal process?
drajknox is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 2:57 pm
  #72  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: NZ Silver A3 Gold Qantas Gold Accor Platinum
Posts: 223
Really think giving AIRNZ a loan was not bold enough and that lateral thinking is absent from the problem. The reality in these extrodinary times. NZ inc has no real airlift capability apart from a few outdated aircraft in the RNZAF. A bold and innovative decision would have been for the Govt to lease half the NZ fleet with maintanence contracts and crew. Alot of AIRNZ pilots are ex RNZAF thus quickly rerolled. This could all be placed under the unbrella of say Defence then funding from Defence/MFAT/Contingencey used to fund the leases from AIRNZ thus cash flow and an immediate drop in operational costs for the airline.

The capability could the be utilised under the umbrella of miltary mission for frieght of national interest. Also some capacity could be used to uplift NZrs stranded around the world. Teams of immigration/customs.medical/sercurity could be aboard to facilitate at embarkcation. The front cabins used as isolation for travellers who present with temparture or medical assist.

AIRNZ would have enough capability to met current needs and future needs when the TT routes start to come on as a first tranche of normality.

A KISS solution with a win/win outcome?
ClanJ is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:10 pm
  #73  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Island, New Zealand
Programs: Krisflyer, Qantas Frequent Flyer, Air NZ Airpoints, Koru, NZ*S and former *G
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by drajknox
I’ve had many Business Class fares but never cancelled one - however are many/most Business Class booking usually mostly refundable by customer cancellation minus a fee?

If the consumer cancels the booking in this situation isn’t a refund the normal process?
yes, different fares have different rules, but the airline is trying to add flexibility as well.

In my case I have 2 long haul fares booked, to provide examples:

The first trip is business class that can be cancelled under original conditions with $250 ew cost, although those flights have now been suspended. Outside 48 hrs so have not bothered to call yet. Unable to cancel online.

The other is PE long haul purchased on sale with no refund if cancelled based on initial fare, but again that service has been suspended, and being outside 48 hrs I have not called yet.

For me a probable outcome might be refund of the first trip, hopefully without penalty, and if I can’t get refund for the second then accept a credit and hope the world progresses enough to be able to use it in the next 12 months.
ottiehund is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:13 pm
  #74  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Island, New Zealand
Programs: Krisflyer, Qantas Frequent Flyer, Air NZ Airpoints, Koru, NZ*S and former *G
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by ClanJ
Really think giving AIRNZ a loan was not bold enough and that lateral thinking is absent from the problem. The reality in these extrodinary times. NZ inc has no real airlift capability apart from a few outdated aircraft in the RNZAF. A bold and innovative decision would have been for the Govt to lease half the NZ fleet with maintanence contracts and crew. Alot of AIRNZ pilots are ex RNZAF thus quickly rerolled. This could all be placed under the unbrella of say Defence then funding from Defence/MFAT/Contingencey used to fund the leases from AIRNZ thus cash flow and an immediate drop in operational costs for the airline.

The capability could the be utilised under the umbrella of miltary mission for frieght of national interest. Also some capacity could be used to uplift NZrs stranded around the world. Teams of immigration/customs.medical/sercurity could be aboard to facilitate at embarkcation. The front cabins used as isolation for travellers who present with temparture or medical assist.

AIRNZ would have enough capability to met current needs and future needs when the TT routes start to come on as a first tranche of normality.

A KISS solution with a win/win outcome?
I expect we will see some government backed charter arrangements with the airline, freight and passenger, for deemed essential/desirable services.
ottiehund is offline  
Old Mar 21, 2020, 3:42 pm
  #75  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by b1m9t0
What do you expect them to do, just return your $13k? And the next guy? And the next guy? And when all the money is gone, what about the thousands of other people in line wanting their money back? Why not them? Because they didn't ask for their money back quick enough?
Yes, absolutely (if that's what the contract says). If they run out of money then they go into liquidation, like any other business or they ask their shareholders for more money.
codyc1515 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.