Last edit by: irishguy28
Introduction
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).This is only applicable in the first year.
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
Upcoming changes to Flying Blue in 2018
#871
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DUS/AMS/HAM
Programs: HH-D / IHG-Sp / Marriott-P / LH-SEN / BA-S
Posts: 215
It's already been said in the original announcement that YQ is taken into account for the calculation of FB miles earned, as well as all paid options (seats, baggages, meals, etc). But in case of award tickets, I don't think the YQ paid part of the ticket will lead to any miles earned. Award tickets still means 0 miles earned.
While many will whine w.r.t revenue-based program, I am totally fine with earning 4-8 Miles per EUR on revenue ticket, I do agree it's fair - but consequently I expect that YQ and any other spending such as extra luggage on award-tix or that monthly PROMO award-tix must qualify for earning miles as well.
Without forcing consistency on airlines, they are doing whatever they want.
#872
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,928
This is why they should be sued! In most European countries, typically the customer protection is heavier and more rigid. Two years ago LH lost case when a passenger sued them on refunding non-refundable ticket. Sounds illogical to many, but that can happen with German customer protection!
While many will whine w.r.t revenue-based program, I am totally fine with earning 4-8 Miles per EUR on revenue ticket, I do agree it's fair - but consequently I expect that YQ and any other spending such as extra luggage on award-tix or that monthly PROMO award-tix must qualify for earning miles as well.
Without forcing consistency on airlines, they are doing whatever they want.
While many will whine w.r.t revenue-based program, I am totally fine with earning 4-8 Miles per EUR on revenue ticket, I do agree it's fair - but consequently I expect that YQ and any other spending such as extra luggage on award-tix or that monthly PROMO award-tix must qualify for earning miles as well.
Without forcing consistency on airlines, they are doing whatever they want.
The rules are clear. It’s perfectly fine to not like them / to not be satisfied, but in that case move on and don’t use FB, don’t fly AFKL. Go where the grass is greener for you
#873
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DUS/AMS/HAM
Programs: HH-D / IHG-Sp / Marriott-P / LH-SEN / BA-S
Posts: 215
Sorry to tell you, while airlines can tell any T&C whatever they want, but those T&C will be void if found to be against state law. Any company TCs are clearly subordinate to any state law and will be nullified if found not to abide law!
With such unfortunate sentences and tell that to every customer - no one will buy your product anymore. Just like AC&Fitch!
I am the customer who's paying so why am I the one who begs for the service!? Companies do exist because the existence of consumer - not other way around.
And I told you, not that I don't agree with revenue-based program - I actually find it's fair to be revenue than distance based - but what I'd like to emphasize is the consistency of the program!
I am the customer who's paying so why am I the one who begs for the service!? Companies do exist because the existence of consumer - not other way around.
And I told you, not that I don't agree with revenue-based program - I actually find it's fair to be revenue than distance based - but what I'd like to emphasize is the consistency of the program!
#875
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,065
Sure. Because paying 181600 for the ticket and getting 1600 back from YQ is such a grand difference to paying 180000 in the first place.
but hey, you'll make all those folks with 181200 on their account mighty happy.
but hey, you'll make all those folks with 181200 on their account mighty happy.
#876
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DUS/AMS/HAM
Programs: HH-D / IHG-Sp / Marriott-P / LH-SEN / BA-S
Posts: 215
With 400 EUR YQ that would be at least 2400 Miles back (for me). Not pretty much, only about 4%, but better than nothing for sure?
Flying it 3 or 4 times a year, that would accumulate to 7200 / 9600!
Otherwise everybody could just say - oh that's only small amount of 1600 or 2400 or 9600 or [insert any number here]...
Seems many people can only make binary distinction between small and big amount of miles... When something in between comes then people become illiterate!
#877
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,065
You're missing the point. If FB now had to give you 2400 miles back, they would just start charging 65k for the award.
They don't even have to show it in the charts. The awards are going to be priced dynamically anyway.
They don't even have to show it in the charts. The awards are going to be priced dynamically anyway.
#878
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,566
DOT ruled that "fuel surcharge" should refer to actual fuel costs. Then airlines changed the wording from fuel surcharge to carrier surcharge, not a big deal.
Getting strictly uniform rules for every FFP of every airline seems to be what you are aiming for. That is a weird concept in a free world.
In a distance-based scheme, every mile flown does not get credited, all miles flown are not equal. Some fares are excluded.
In a revenue-based scheme, every dollar spent does not get credited either. You might wish for such a simple scheme, but it is never going to happen. And suing simply because a program does not fit your taste is futile; and I share Goldorak's attitude towards the sue-sue reaction.
#879
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: AMS
Programs: KL PFL; BA Gold; A3 Silver; EY Silver; SU Silver
Posts: 2,488
#880
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DUS/AMS/HAM
Programs: HH-D / IHG-Sp / Marriott-P / LH-SEN / BA-S
Posts: 215
I just don't get the attitude that it's the customer who has always to be pushed and if we don't agree simply leave the program. Of course everyone is free not to join any program, but at the end, it's the customer who pay AF/KL to operate and they do exist because customer like me or maybe you are paying! Without customer, they wouldn't even exist.
#881
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,566
I didn't say that and it's a little bit too extreme.
Like I said, I am OK with revenue-based program, but what I would like to have is more consistency in the program. I guess you completely missed the point where YQ, or seat reservation, or luggage fee are also a revenue for the airline, regardless it is an award or normal tix!
I just don't get the attitude that it's the customer who has always to be pushed and if we don't agree simply leave the program. Of course everyone is free not to join any program, but at the end, it's the customer who pay AF/KL to operate and they do exist because customer like me or maybe you are paying! Without customer, they wouldn't even exist.
Like I said, I am OK with revenue-based program, but what I would like to have is more consistency in the program. I guess you completely missed the point where YQ, or seat reservation, or luggage fee are also a revenue for the airline, regardless it is an award or normal tix!
I just don't get the attitude that it's the customer who has always to be pushed and if we don't agree simply leave the program. Of course everyone is free not to join any program, but at the end, it's the customer who pay AF/KL to operate and they do exist because customer like me or maybe you are paying! Without customer, they wouldn't even exist.
That is a genuine question, I am not an expert on these new developments.
#882
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DUS/AMS/HAM
Programs: HH-D / IHG-Sp / Marriott-P / LH-SEN / BA-S
Posts: 215
European carriers on the other side (LH Group for instance) charges up to 600 EUR for YQ.
This is a little bit out of topic but I'm just demonstrating how customer protection should work:
An LH-SEN sued Miles & More couple years ago and he won. The effect now: MM has to give notification at least 3 months if they are going to change their award table.
Would he used the mentality "let's being pushed by the airlines", MM would still theoretically do overnight award table change, just like any other carriers there. Thankfully not!
You and many others can still disagree, that's fine. But as a customer, I still believe the number 1 reason for the existence of AF/KL/LH/.... is the customer, so I believe the customers have a right to voice their opinion as well and should this voice is neglected, people have the right to bring the case to the court.
#883
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,928
In all changes, there are some winners and losers, or some people for which the change is neutral. No need to go to court to express our voices. But as you seem to be a fan of suing, then please go, waste your time and money and have fun !
#884
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DUS/AMS/HAM
Programs: HH-D / IHG-Sp / Marriott-P / LH-SEN / BA-S
Posts: 215
Yes, and so at the end it's the same, the award table is changed. Don't get me wrong, I believe it's perfectly normal and fair that they give a few months notice and so the customer can plan and act accordingly, but please recognize that AF has informed all members 4 months in advance.
In all changes, there are some winners and losers, or some people for which the change is neutral. No need to go to court to express our voices. But as you seem to be a fan of suing, then please go, waste your time and money and have fun !
In all changes, there are some winners and losers, or some people for which the change is neutral. No need to go to court to express our voices. But as you seem to be a fan of suing, then please go, waste your time and money and have fun !
#885
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: AMS / ATH
Programs: AFKL Plat, A3 Gold
Posts: 7,342
* Small exception perhaps on some lawful rules that are not adhered to, but that obviously does not apply to how many miles they award - that is totally up to them. If you don't like it - leave.