No thats not what I was meaning, and not for a minute do I think you dont know what you are talking about! Its the opposite!
I came back to AC this year partly because of FT...you in particular. However its been tough, SYD became a pain with a new stop in YVR, BKK became an new stop in YVR, HKG went SARS and AC gave 1/2 points to YVR....HNL is gone. YUP and I fly to all those places in 12 months. Add to this AC is not that competitive $ to SIN/BKK, and has no E+. I only go to LHR twice a year and I was Elite at the time NO HOPE of upgrade.
Yes its been a tough time for AC as well CCAA http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Anyhow US has come up with an Amazing program for next year lets hope AC will "see the light" and make some adjustments. However you and I both know, the light at the end of the tunnel, is dark in term of more resonable upgrades http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
And AC has no money to even think about E+ let alone fix the 32" seat pitch.

ADDED oops I was VERY excited about YYZ-DEL as you know, but its not that exciting anymore I am so happy the trip didnt work out! I am Batting 0% with AC this year, let me tell you where I'm going with AC next so all of you can avoid the flight! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:


[This message has been edited by why fly (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

How is paying CAD $260 for 4 x 500 miles of upgrades any worse than paying CAD $905 more for an "upgradeable" fare, with only a chance at an upgrade (for 2078 miles?) (And strangely, an overnight fare rule change on the route in question now means that under some conditions, the difference between a non upgradeable fare and an upgradeably fare would be over $2800, + taxes on that amount. That amount of money would be 40 x 500 miles (20,000 miles) of upgrades.)

Huh?! All I said was that I won't gamble, and that if I have to gamble to get an upgrade on AC, then I won't be flying AC. I have no expectation of anyone doing something for me just because of "who I am."

I've already extablished a trend that obtaining an upgrade is requiring a lot of gerrymandering, not to mention the inconvenience of extra connections or taking less than the ideal flight. And you yourself have noted that the currect "C" space numbers are an unintended consequence of a stupid decision. Either of those seem like perfectly good reasons to complain.

Given comments here, and more importantly observations of 25, 50 or more people trying to upgrade on a single flight, and I rather think people are obsessed with upgrades. Regardless, I am obsessed with upgrades.

I'm not sure I would consider airport agents a reliable source for what passengers think of upgrades, or upgrade programs.

But YVR-HKG or YYZ-HKG aren't necessarily a good indication of what is happening with the rest of the system

So it can't be that impossible.

On the contrary, BA does upgrade, using much different parameters than NA airlines use. You can now also upgrade BA flights using BA points.

But I'm not suprised that you didn't get upgraded on a BA flight as a *anything. BA is oneworld.

No, they want you to have no expectations whatsoever.

But if I pay the upgradeable fare, if I'm otherwise eligible in terms of status and time thresholds, and there are plenty of open J seats, then yes, I expect an upgrade. Just like I've been promised in my benefits guide.

So you're saying that upgrading on ORD-HKG on UA is about the same as upgrading on YVR-HKG on AC?

Besides, upgrades consist of a lot more than just crossing the Pacific Ocean. I myself regularly receive comp upgrades on UA domestic flights, as an AC*SE (*G) member. And even when I don't, I invariably get an E+ seat, usually with the middle seat blocked.

The problem is that now you have to pay extra just for an ever shrinking chance of a benefit. And it's not just $100. On one of my regular routes the 7-day L fare is $438 while the 7-day H fare is $1343. Is it reasonable to pay an additional ~200% ($905) just for a small chance to upgrade a portion of a journey?

But I and many others did not. So upgrades to Asia play only a tiny role, if any, in our program decisions.


[This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

I am referring to the entire system.

As I've said, unless you show me that you've failed to get an upgrade from an upgradeable fare, there's no need to continue addressing your complains.

Really? Benefit guide saids 'You can use your upgrade certificates as long as space is available in the eligible booking class you are upgrading to.' Did it promise that upgradeable fare = gurantee upgrades?

I've been to all those places this year (few times each). With SYD, the fare on UA is really not cheap. It costs about the same as a H class on AC. I would far prefer to sit in J and have an extra stop and sit in Y all the way with one less stop. As for BKK, sounds like you're a 'bargain hunter', how you keep on saying AC is more expensive is beyond me. UA is only cheap ex-USA and AC often matches their price. I flew from US to BKK few months ago on AC for under $800 CAD. If you fly AC, it's via YVR & HKG. If you fly UA, it's via ORD/SFO and NRT. I do get what you're saying in regards to the 50% Q miles on domestic flight. As a SE, you already have a better chance than others to get around that by buying H and upgrade so you earn 125%! You're an Asia flyer, start using a TA, they could save you a bundle with their consolidator contracts. Well, not much they could do about the current situation with the DEL flights, agreed? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Empress (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

That will never happen, because if I've paid an upgradeable fare, then I will be upgraded.

There's no need for AC to address my complaints either (and sadly, so far they have not) any more than there is a need for me to fly AC. I may wish to fly AC, but I do not need to.

And that's what it's all about. Regardless of whether the airline thinks they are doing a good thing, particularly in a "vacuum", they are more affected by the preceptions of their customers, which are in turn affected by the actions and offers of other programs.

This thread isn't about my complaints. It's about whether or not the UA program is improving. And given that perception is reality combined with the perception that UA really is improving while AC (even in my view) is declining, and it seems AC has two options (or perhaps more.)

One is to address those concerns. The other is to play ostrich.

So you're batting 100% with upgrades. (Many people here are) You chose to pay the extra 200%, you haven't had to sit in the back (either through your own juggling of routings or clear on day of departure). I don't see what's wrong with that. You did voluntarily chose to pay a higher economy class fare to qualify for a chance at an upgrade, didn't you? It's not AC fault that you're buying an upgradeable fare, right? If you fly 50 flights with J per year and you don't clear the upgrade waitlist a few times, you're still well ahead.

No, it does not promise that an upgradeable fare = a guaranteed upgrade. But it does effectively promise that an upgradeable fare combined with qualifying status, time threshold, and, as you note "as long as space is available", does = a guaranteed upgrade.

And by both inference and practice, AC has indicated that a wide open J cabin, months in advance, is available. There can be no justification for claiming that a J cabin with 0/42 seats sold has no upgrade space available, other than they wish to reduce or deny upgrades.

Then good for you for picking the right flights or juggling your dates to make sure you get an upgrade. In fact, it's quite rare on the AC forum to see people say they didn't get an upgrade after buying an upgradeable fare. On the other hand, you'll see threads like 'international upgrade waitlist hell', ' open F seats on 757 and UG still WL' on the UA forum on a regular basis.
Yes, they have improved. But it will backfire. More 1K + more SWU + easier to use & same amount of seats. It's not a hard forumlae to understand. All the 1Ks will have higher expectations only to be disappointed in the end.

I don't want to burst your SE bubble Ken but even *S can get a E+ seat on UA. If possible, most of the time, UA will block the middle seat in the E+ section regardless of status.

But enough about fighting back and forth. Empress shouldn't have to defend AC as if he owns it. He's trying the best that he could to get more information to us on a timely basis.

Even if Empress were to say that everyone is right and AC is totally wrong about upgrades. What is that going to do? It's not like he can change the situation. If you're not happy with how AC treats you, you have choices: don't fly AC, always route your flights through UA, fly Westjet, take the train, etc..

Btw, the hotel upgrade explanation does not apply to airlines. Both Hilton and Starwood specifically have a policy on upgrades for their elite members. Those upgrades are not always guaranteed.

I honestly think that we have been majorly spoiled with all the upgrades. Upgrades are almost second nature to some. Is that the right mentality given AC can still go down the drain?

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just want people to be more realistic. I'm sure there are some AC spies lurking around FT to get more information. All our inputs might be considered in the future.

If AC has a cash flow like Emirate, I'm sure we would have VOD, flat beds, sliding doors, Satallite tv, internet, big portion of food for free (even in economy). But Ac doesn't.. sigh..

Uh, OK... and?

I think you're making my point for me. On AC in an equivalent situation you'll get a plain old econo seat. In fact, you might even get worse than a plain old econo seat if they put you in the reduced pitch priority seating area found on some planes.

Absolutely! They need to start focusing on revenue enhancement as much as they do on cost reduction, because cost reduction is a finite animal any way you slice it.

And if the worst were to happen (which politically speaking is all but impossible) someone would step in and fill the gap. That might well mean more upgrade options.

That quite simply is of no concern to the passenger, beyond will the airline survive long enough to get me home. If they can't provide the service that I need or desire, then I will just have to find someone who can.

And in fact he doesn't have to.

Nevertheless, the AC program seems to be in decline as far as upgrades go, particularly with the disappearing C inventory. Meanwhile, UA's program seems to be improving. Whether UA is better than AC yet is a matter for each individual to decide based on their own needs.

But simply saying that AC is better because you get more certificates and there aren't as many members doesn't wash, particularly since there have been reports that the number of Elite members is set to increase significantly next year.

WOW what a night! go to bed and wake up to this lively discussion!
Empress, UA people thing the new upgrades will be better for 1k members.?? thats what they are saying on the UA topic.

OH and just like AC some UA member don't know what the certs/or upgrade programs are for, when I was in ORD the guy in front of me was using SWEET SPOTS for a flight to BUF, I told him how amazing the SWU were and he gave me his certs, thanked me for the FT site info.
I guess we both won, however I think I got the better part of the deal http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
PS later he mailed me 2 more. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

UA is in desparate straights as it attempts to emerge from Chapter 11. It cannot afford to take the Tough Love approach that DL and CO -- and NW soon? -- have taken to become more revenue sensitive in elite tiers/benefits, so it is increasing the number of elites and the perceived attractiveness of benefits. At the same time, it is reducing the number of F seats on domestic flights [as has AA], so mostly those who can plan to fly those jets with larger cabins can benefit from domestic upgrading. It has lots of Pacific capacity but is still only filling much of the J cabin with low fare upgrades, spurred on by flooding the market with SWUs.

On the good side, it has maintained Y+ seating -- albeit Pacific 777s are its achilles heel, along with no personal video in the back on 747s -- which satisfies low fare elites, and from which AC could learn a thing or two. But UA also knows that increasing percentages of elites are not going to get their upgrades and this is a reasonable fall back.

AC's program has always been more akin to the Tough Love we have seen at DL and CO [yes, I know about CO's upgrades, but that is controlled by the availability of seats and is a trade off for not adding inches to a portion of the Y cabin for elites who don't get their upgrades]. It has been revenue sensitive to reward the company's highest paying customers, not just their most frequent customers. It limits upgrading because it still sells domestic front cabin seats, at a premium over back cabin seats. Keeping the upgrade fare high, keeps the integrety and value of the front cabin. At the same time, for SEs at least, knowing you pay a higher back cabin fare pretty much guarantees an upgrade on all but the most heavily travelled business routes, if not at 72-hours, then at the gate. [Yes, the C0 thing is disturbing and must be addressed. But in spite of it, who has not gotten their domestic upgrade when this has occured?]

AC's policy generally is to provide elite benefits that are of real value to high yield customers. Most are service oriented, not "freebie" oriented. It is more difficult on AC to get upgrades and earn elite status when you only fly the cheapest fares. Some US carriers have recognized this conundrum and opted to follow AC. Others remain satisfied that being more liberal in their approach to upgrades, etc. will bring them defectors from the hard line carriers. Those hard line carriers are pruning their customer base, and thus can also adjust capacity to increase the yield per seat/customer.

All programs and carrier ops are in transition because the old rules don't apply. I guess that's the beauty of the marketplace: a diversity of approaches which will appeal differently to a variety of customers.

Sure, it will be interesting to see what Aeroplan will offer next year, besides the opportunity to cash in miles for adult toys [no, not those types of adult toys...!]. I don't expect much, other than a rectification of the C0 situation. We already did get a further refinement of revenue-sensitive status miles, in the increase for upgraded and full J domestic fares. [And the reduction on some of the lowest fares: hey, another feature of the fare you pay will be the type and number of FF miles you earn, since these do cost AC money.]

Yes, Aeroplan and C+ were great programs five years ago. In some respects, Aeroplan has been gutted. But within the Canadian market context, it is still a pretty good program for AC's best customers [i.e. high yield customers] that does not cheapen the value of the premium products the airline is selling. And that's become the bottom line.

Ken,

How have you managed to score comp upgrades on UA? I've always had to cash in 500-milers. Pray tell http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Simon

feel free to send me one of those! I can definitely use it!