On the other hand, the declines in AC service in many, many areas, including the recent difficulty in getting upgrades, is a fact.

Wonderful Hows SYD from YYZ??? How about a lounge? OK how about NRT from YYZ, oh great http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif go via YVR get 1/2 points and miss the connections in NRT, as the one flight is late?? Guys its not just having a better meal and not everyone flys "J"

Empress: No one is stopping you from UA. Please speak facts and don't make up things.

Empress, does this better explain what I'm talking about? Does it make any sense to fly AC to BKK, SIN, SYD from YYZ? Oh did AC drop any flights to Europe?? DEL was a greeat addition but we best hold our breath on that one.

OK maybe I have been lucky getting upgrades with UA, but at least I have a chance, with low fares I have NO CHANCE with AC! Also I brought this, FT post up to see what "other peoples thoughts were" UA seems to have some nice perks for the International customer..... I would LOVE AC to give me more useful upgrades! I would Love AC to ADD E+ seats, at least INT flights.


[This message has been edited by why fly (edited Nov 12, 2003).]

and Not anymore, given the lack of "C" space availability.

The grief I experienced on my last trip, particularly with regard to insuring an upgrade, combined with substantial new enhancements by UA, DL, and probably AA, have me currently and seriously investigating other program. If you peruse other forums you might have seen recent posts by me in places I normally never visit. That's just the start of my research.


AC is rapidly becoming "not a full service carrier."

For less than the difference between a WestJet fare and an AC upgradeable fare on many routes, you can purchase a Priority Pass that will grant access to MLL and other lounges, even if travelling WestJet.

On some routes, WestJet has better schedules than AC. On many others, they have comparable schedules.

And given that upgrades and the cheaper discount business class fares are becoming scarce, not to mention that they are several times what you'd pay for a WestJet ticket.

Finally, AC has recently reduced seat pitch to charter levels in the "priority seating" area on many planes, while WestJet is increase pitch and adding PTV.

And finally finally, there the potential for 5 hours on a trans-con CRJ on AC, along with lots of tarmac-to-tarmac service.

That'll probably come as a surprise to the multitudes of business travellers on WestJet and JetsGo.

And business travel is completely price insensitive.

You obviously haven't been reading Empress' frequent reports from the front lines about all the cutbacks to international flights (not to mention a lot of transborder flights.)

And for a primarily transborder flyer like myself, Aeroplan is becoming less attractive by the day, particularly as the US carriers have begun the long climb back up instead of the full power nose dive that AC/AP/AE seem to be in.

Note also all of the recent efforts to make their domestic product more competitive while their international product languishes. (And improving the meals while everyone else is adding sleeper seats and enhance IFE, particularly while cutting back on routes, is not being "competitive.")




[This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited Nov 12, 2003).]

On the other hand, Aeroplan does have better toasters.

8,000,004?

FATBOYVR and EMPRESS how about the new idea for passenger not being able to prebook seats??? I'm not sure Empress you have the answer is that for Internation flights?

Could AC let E or SE book exit rows, or how about giving us better seat pitch, or blocking seats for SE or E members on flights that are not full? Lots of things AC could do to improve the international flights...
Empress why are you so much against more useable upgrades if SE get first pick? How about AC give better upgrades but upgrades go to SE first! That would not hurt SE's but help everyone????? Lets come up with some ideas to make AC's programs more competitive. More of the current certs is silly, its bathroom wallpaper.[and we can't trade them http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:]

And how does UA do it better? You still have to make a connection to NRT and the connection time is still the same. In case you haven't noticed, one of AC's NRT flights arrive at 15:25. If that doesn't work for you, then it's just too bad because UA's flights does not arrive much earlier than this. Once again, your Asia thing does not make sense to me.

UA and AC are two different airlines. Count how many long range planes UA has? How many does AC has? AC dropped what flights to Europe? All those flights they've dropped are seasonal and others are because of low loads. You expect AC to operate a plane with 5 people on it just so you won't complain? As for DEL, did AC chose not to fly via Russia and delay the flights few hours a day?

As I've said - if you are not willing to buy H to get upgraded on AC, there are lots more people out there who are willing to do so. On routes that you're complaining, J are going out packed full. On Asia flights lately, absolutely nobody is clearing upgrades at the gate because J cabin is full. What chance do you want AC to give you?
Their upgrades are as useful/fair as anyone else for international travels. At least they seriously reward loyalty when it comes to upgrades by limiting their use only to the member who earned it rather than letting everybody use it like on UA. How is UA looking after their frequent flyers in this regard?

Everyone else? Come on...

[This message has been edited by Empress (edited Nov 12, 2003).]

That only applies to Domestic TANGO fares.

No one is against more useable upgrades. As far as I am concerned, the upgrades certs have been very useful to me because I've been able to upgrade every single flight that I've requested an upgrade on and those flights are often booked very close to departure date. Never had to play gate lotto. My point is - if the international flights that you're so concerned about are going out full in J already with the current system (I can count the number of people who got upgraded at the gate on Asia flights the past 30 days with 2 hands), why change it? Then everyone will be more disappointed than now because there will be no seats to upgrade them to.

1.OK then isn't[full flights] another reason for some of us to consider UA?
2. I hate paying for H class tickets so its going to be difficult for me to be upgraded, also with the new LOTTO going on I am even less likely to try.
3. Also AC has cut points for flights UA has not. [think about YYZ-NRT YYZ-SYD etc.]
4. The customers on UA are very excited about these new upgrade rules.
5. People on our AC FT were saying flyer programs were going to be cut for Q miles, and upgrades,..... well looks like thats not true!
6. When do we get our 2004 program?

If you are really that unhappy with AC and its upgrade policies, routes, international service etc etc, then honestly go to UA. No reason to stick with something that doesnt seem to work for you. The less people there are to compete with for upgrades the happier I will be http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For me this competition for upgrades is still the big problem with UA, and its going to be much worse next year. I will not forget the announcement at SFO where over 100 people or something were trying to clear the UG list at the gate. At least with AC it is better and at the moment you have a chance of getting an UG to Asia. Also with many of the TA fares you can avoid lotto and buy your cheap consolidator fare only when you know you can UG, and there are some very good fares to Asia on AC (See Destina for YYZ-SHA. No advance, no minimum stay etc).
However, the bottom line is that if you want to fly J on AC to Asia, you have to buy it. Such is demand at the moment. More upgrades from lower fares will make no difference to this, except to give you some pretty bits of wallpaper, and lots of frustration about never being able to use them...

2. What do you want them to do? Give you a flight for nothing on routes where they can fully sell out a J cabin??? H on most international routes (domestic is a different issue) is usually not much more than a cheap fare, and generally also gives you some flexilibity. I am happy to pay more and know I am competing with less people for those J seats! As an SE the upgrades to Europe are awesome, and unmatched if you do a lot of trips a year.

3.What do you mean? If you do YYZ-YVR-SYD as two flights and upgrade to C you will even get 125% on YYZ-YVR. How is this cutting points?

4. So? Doesnt make it better, but people always like improvements.

This thread is like a WWF tag team wrestling episode.

I doubt that anyone in the AC forum wants AC to simply giveaway J seats for upgrades on high J demand routes when they can sell them. Come on now.

A lot of the "pro-AC" arguments seem to be from the point of view that "it's good for the airline." No doubt.

But to the customer that's of no concern. If they perceive they can't get the benefits they are promised, or worse, that another program will offer them more, then clearly it's in the best interest of the customer to go elsewhere.

No one's expecting AC to give away seats they can sell. But if you're going to be stuck in an AC Y seat with almost certainty, then why not go on UA for a cheaper fare, the possibility of an E+ seat (and yes, I know that not all of UA's Asia flights have E+ yet but I'm certain that none of AC's do), and perhaps an improved chance at an upgrade?

It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but some of the same characteristics apply. So if it's good for the airline, chances are it's not so good for the customer. And in that case, the customer would be foolish not to maximize their own benefits.


[This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited Nov 12, 2003).]

FATBOYYVR

3.What do you mean? If you do YYZ-YVR-SYD as two flights and upgrade to C you will even get 125% on YYZ-YVR. How is this cutting points?

UGH OK like I said if you want to throw your company money away and pay Y fares get your upgrade.... Empress just said the ASIA flights are full so how are you getting upgraded???? How is that better than UA?

UGH AGAIN
on Q fares AC is only giving 1/2 points on flight in Canada!!!!!! Its tough to only fly full fare tickets and coment on programs... Have you not been reading about the cut to the program that affect 98% of the people who dont pay full fare?

So to fully explain.... AC YYZ to SYD will mean 1/2 points to YVR then go to HNL then go to SYD..... Other airlines [read UA] go YYZ-LAX-SYD we might get an upgrade http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif and its faster, and its more points and its often cheaper. Oh and when you wait in HNL on AC do you like the lounge??? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
SO same problem to NRT,SHA,BEJ??? whatever most of ASIA http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif


[This message has been edited by why fly (edited Nov 12, 2003).]

Of course, then you think about the number of international destinations AC serves compared to before. Four European destinations this winter.

As for international Y being "enhanced", how is charging for spirits and liquors an enhancement? If its one step forward and one step back...