As I've said many times. The UA upgrade system is very different from AC. With Aeroplan, you get 2 Systemwides for every 10K you fly. That basically mean you never run out if you fly anything other than short haul flights. Those Systemwides are good for any AC metal flights. With UA, you get all these different ones (and limit of 2 HK-50 per quarter) and it's inevitable that you will need to use miles to upgrade soon.

Paying a bit extra for a chance at an upgrade is extremely fair to me. Just like when you gamble, there's no such thing as sure win. If you really don't like to pay the upgrade lotto, there's this option for SE called buy full Y and get C right away. You cannot expect to pay the lowest fare yet expect to get the upgrade every single time.

As I've heard from SEs many times at airports when they don't clear after buying an upgradeable fare - 'It's ok, business class is full so not much I could do. I guess better luck next time.'. Some flying on those HKG flight even think clearing once or twice per year is a miracle and appreciates it.

Not everyone out there think not getting an upgrade is the end of the world.

When I buy a H class fare, I look at that as a small surcharge that I have to pay to get J class. If I lose the lotto, then I still paid a fairly low Economy class fare. If I win, then I only had to pay 20% of a full J fare to sit up there. With the upgrade success rate most SEs have, you are still ahead at the end of the year.

There are routes that I fly regularly where the upgradeable fare is more than 300% of the none upgradeable fare. And to top it off, a large portion of the itinerary is on a single class plane.

So in my case, I would have paid a 200% premium for an ever shrinking chance at upgrading a portion of the journey.

Combine that with the difficulty of obtaining upgrades of any fashion within Canada, and it matters not a wit how many certificates you receive. If you can't use them it's no different than not having any.

Then that is the price of an upgrade on that route. The decision is yours to make whether it's worth it or not. As for the certificates, I think unless you've paid for an upgradeable fare and ended up sitting in the back, that argument really isn't valid. (If you simply avoid playing the lotto and only pick flights which you can confirm C right away, then you're the smart one and there's really nothing to complain about.) Yes, the C0 thing was stupid but it was in part due to the new Executive fare structure (which is not quite working the way they wanted to, people simply pay for flights with C instead of buying the higher J) and their intention was not to limit upgrades.

[This message has been edited by Empress (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

Well, upgrades are becoming more and more difficult to arrange on AC. So number of certificates is fast becoming a moot point.

Nevertheless, you still have the option of buying upgrades at UA on an "as needed" basis, generally for a tiny fraction of the difference between L/N/Q and V/H fares. So you can effectively get unlimited upgrades for a small portion of the incremental cost of buying upgradeable AC fares.

Then there are programs like AA that offer unlimited free upgrades to all elite levels for paying the higher fares. These range from time of booking for top-tier to 24-hour thresholds and gate upgrades for others. You never run out of these.

BZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT!!!!

Like I've stated many times before, I do not gamble, and "Paying a bit extra for a chance at an upgrade" is gambling. As to whether or not it's "fair" that's of no concern to me. If I have to start gambling, then I'm better off on another airline that does not use a version of AeroLotto.

On the contrary, I can and do. Nevertheless, there is one thing you can be absolutely certain of: "You can't lose if you don't play."

There's also another way. Fly an airline that offers upgrades from any fare, but with time thresholds. That way even if you don't get the upgrade you haven't wasted any more of your employer's or client's money.

Then they belong to the disadvantaged lot in life; in another lifetime they might have been working in the mines.

They are the innumerate -- the numerically challenged who pay voluntary taxes.

I think you'd have a difficult time proving that reading FT.[/quote]

In the words of Monty Python: "Luck don't enter into it!"

But there is something to complain about: for no good reason C upgrade space is fast disappearing.

And with every cutback or other clever little trick to reduce upgrades, UA, and AA and everyone else, starts to look better compared to AC.

Does it ever?

To customers, intentions do not matter. Effects do.

No, it isn't.

That's the price of a chance of an upgrade, not the upgrade.

I'll happily pay that 200% premium for the upgrade, but not for the chance. To me the two are as different as a brick and a belly dancer.

Yet again, Ken provides a brilliant analysis. If C0 is pissing off the top of the top of frequent flyers a sensible airline would fix this AT ONCE. Alas....

Thanks KEN!
1. Personally I think Status is #1 about upgrades.
2. Lounge
3. Use of points [instant KK]

I got SE to use my points and I am VERY happy. Unfortunately AC made my Asia travel more difficult... adjusting flights http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif[Hows that Empress http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif] So I am finding UA cheaper, easier to get upgrades,and better connections with more points.

SO I was going to switch to UA but Empress came up with lots of PROS with AC that has me holding.
After looking at UA new program these upgrade certs would be VERY useful to me and many other AC flyers... I can do 3 asia tickets from BUF for $600 to $800 US and upgrade. Again if I dont make the upgrades I'm in E+.. I know this will hurt some other SE's but I'm not a big guy 5'9" and E+ is fine for me, for $600.

UA program will make it easier for 1k members to upgrade and it was EASY this year.

However my point is to get AC to re-look at the program and make some changes. However we need some more consensus on this...
I keep saying if a J seat is empty and a SE is in Y they should be UPGRADED..... ITS that simple! AC needs to wake up!

So you're saying that it's a right to be upgraded. I personally don't think so. It would be nice if AC did do it more frequently than not, but it is not a right that SEs and Es get upgraded every single time just because there is an empty J seat.

[This message has been edited by YOWkid (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

No. It's either a right or its not done, except in oversell or similar situation. To do otherwise just confuses things and creates expectations for passengers and also grief for GA's.

I think it should be a "right" too. If J seats are available, they should be filled according to status. (Create some upgrade-from-any-fare Aeroplan awards too!)

That said, I think that the rules to get status need major changes. It's too easy to get Aeroplan status by flying cheap international fares on other *A carriers and too difficult to get it by flying expensive domestic fares on AC. AC should move to more of a revenue-based model and perhaps only count actual AC miles towards status.

I think that people who fly 150 AC segments or spend $50K+ in AC airfare deserve to sit up front as often as possible. People (like myself) who fly mostly on long-haul discount fares and throw in the odd UA SIN run? I'm not so sure.

Could not agree with you more!!!!!!!!!

Actually AS/QX have been doing this type of status mile calculation for some time. The qualification threshold for MVP and MVP Gold is lower if flights are solely on AS/QX whereas it is much higher if partner flights are used to qualify:
www.alaskaair.com/mileageplan/MVPStatus.asp