I couldn't agree more. In fact, I would be willing to bet that most of us would also react the same way.

My frustration stems from the numerous incidents of "dropping the ball" when it comes to AC, Aeroplan and Destina. This isn't to say that there has been a few incidents with AS/QX and UA, but the way that they are addressed and/or solved makes the difference.

This thread is getting funnier and funnier. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

It's like talking to a brick wall in some cases. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

No argument here, it is important on here to highlight and discuss things that should not be happening and can be done better. I see this as constructive criticism. I should say that the complaints I have had with AC have usually been addressed pretty well - and I know that this has a lot to do with being SE. Again, my only argument is with people who simply claim AC=bad, UA=good without recognising the complexity of and differences in the two airlines and FF programs.

On the contrary, again, for me, if the C inventory continues to shrink for no good reason, then they are useless, to me, regardless of your feelings.

I think you're missing the point. Unless I had the upgrade, I wouldn't be on any fare, eligible or not.

But the last few flights have been awkward to arrange, because of the non-sensical C inventory numbers. Sooner or later, it's going to be impossible to book an upgradeable flights, then I won't book any flight, with AC.

Well, since everyone else seems to be complaining about others "putting words in their mouths," I might as well get in on the bandwagon. I've never suggested AC should change their system to suit me, or to suit anyone else. They are free to change it as they see fit, as I am free to travel as I see fit.

I also don't take any "drastic measures." They may appear that way to you, but that's not my problem. I keep and maintain as many options as possible, and as occaisions arise, I select from the best of the options.

Well I'm not you (and likewise you are not me.) So I would never find myself in that situation. If I was ticketed in H it would not have been C0. If it had been C0 then I would not have been ticketed in H. In fact it would be likely that I would not be ticketed on AC at all.

I'm way, way, way too proactive to wait for things to "work out" based on the whims or actions of others. I quite simply will force them to work out. And in my favour.

But I find your question to be no different than one which asks "Please tell me you would not be paying J fares when a discounted econo fare would get you there just as quick???"

Some people pay J fares because they desire to and they are able to, either affording it themself or being authorised to to spend their employer's or client's funds to do so.

I'm fortunate enough and in demand enough that I can command the right to spend more than the minimum on air fare and other travel expenses, to pay change fees when I deem it necessary, and to spend as much research and booking time as I require to fly, sleep, drive, and eat at a level that I am happy with. My employer has the right to withdraw those privileges, I suppose, much as they also have the right to hunt for someone to replace me.

(And yes, I've been through that wringer already. Almost exactly one year ago a new travel policy was implemented. A policy that I found non-sensical from the get go, and in customary form, I launched one of my patented nuclear grade tirades at it.

After my department head read my tirade, he could only nod and agree that for frequent travellers, particularly the service deparment, the policy was completely absurd. In the last year a new policy has evolved for frequent travelers.

So now we have the infrequent traveller policy, and the "road warrior" policy, which basically says do what you want, as long as it is reasonable.)

Yes, for me, it does. For others it may not and they are free to do as they see fit, as best benefits them. I'm a firm believer in the Wiccan Rede: "If it do no harm do what thou wilt." If you or anyone else wants to purchase an H fare on a C0 flight, that is of no concern to me.

Because on balance, at the moment, it would be in my best interest to stay with one program. But it is truly a balancing act, and with each little change, in each and every program, the balance tilts to and fro.

If AC's program tilts towards me, then great. If it tilts away from me, too far, then like Kaiser Soze, I'll be gone.

But you yourself regularly make this very argument. You keep claiming that "C0 does not mean no upgrade." Well, I ain't you. C0 may not mean no upgrade for you, but you're "one individual." Other individuals make take the same view. But not me.

And it's a very common problem in forums like this. You needn't hunt far to find a thread that says something like either "No one in this forum should flight this airline because I got screwed" or "I had great service so the rest of you must be idiots."

Would you prefer the apathy of "This sucks for me, but there's nothing I can do about it so I might as well suck it up and suffer?" It's the people who stand up and take a stand the make the differences. The others are just followers.

If enough people are unhappy, and leave, much like they did with US Airways last year, you can be sure the airline or other business will "get religion" real quick, and take steps to improve the lot of their customers.

Well there's another major difference -- I avoid getting upset as much as I can. In fact, if you modified one of my many mottos only slightly, it would be "Don't get upset, get even." In my case, getting even means never finding myself in an econo seat on a long haul flight.

Then you are doomed to suffer whatever fate AC decides to mete out to you.

Here again you are you are speaking on behalf of everyone when in fact you are only competent to speak for yourself. Just because it's not a big deal, for you, doesn't mean it's not a big deal for someone or even everyone else.

That quite simply is false, at least for some and perhaps many or even most SEs. Regularly thoughout the year I become aware of people who are looking for "spare" SE certificates.

While for someone who flies primarily overseas routes there may be an unlimited supply of upgrade certificates, but for someone flying mostly domestic or transborder, it's not at all the case.

Furthermore, certificates are not upgrades. On some very long haul routes even SE's are regularly denied upgrades. And as C space diminishes or disappears, those upgrades will disappear along with them. You can claim that's a seperate issue, but to the person who can't upgrade, it's a specious argument.

If C space goes away, so do upgrades. And I see nothing to convince me that C space is returning.

That has, with the occaision small reversal, been in decline for the last 4 years. Go back and read the various "Renewal Anxiety" threads, and the responses that so often sounded like "There's no way they'd be dumb enough to do that." Then compare to what happened, which was sometimes worse than originally feared.

That last part sounds like nothing so much as "if you don't like it then piss off."

You forgot the part about "and dont waste your time whining on here."

Indeed!

In my soon to be four years as an SE, I'm afraid that not one of my complaints has every been addressed, satisfactorily or otherwise. It's gotten to the point where most of the time I simply don't even bother. I even recently wrote a long letter explaining my concerns about the disappearing C space to a senior executive. A week or two later I got a voice mail from the exec's assistant saying that I should expect a response in two days. That was several weeks ago.

And my complaints are not petty, nor are my letters nasty. Perhaps the problems are just too hard to address.

And my only argument is with people who simply claim AC=good, UA=bad without recognising the complexity of and differences in the needs and desires of individuals.

And finally, one last thing, for now...

It's been pretty well acknowledged and agreed that purchasing an upgradeable fare when C0 is showing is a gamble.

So what do you think your client or employer would think if they knew you were gambling with their money?

Thank you Ken http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Quote by KH:
I even recently wrote a long letter explaining my concerns about the disappearing C space to a senior executive. A week or two later I got a voice mail from the exec's assistant saying that I should expect a response in two days. That was several weeks ago.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

I also wrote to Bill Bredt at AC about disappearing C class and he was quick,next day, to respond himself that they were adjusting their flights and that there would be more availability soon and to write again if I still had concerns.
Maybe its who you write to that causes the lack of responses or maybe you ask too much of them at this time.

Wow, I wish I had the time to compose a reply like that, but unfortunately I dont. I also dont see any point in continually repeating the same stuff, as in the end, there is no way we are going to agree. I would just restate my position (which I wish to make clear is only that, I never intended to try and speak for others, despite the accusations of this). The zeroing out of C in the way it has been happening, is bad, I would not defend this. However, I still think that this does not mean you will not the upgrade if eligible, just that you will not get it at 7 days out. It does not make certificates useless.

In terms of sweetspots, sure I would like them, but NOT if it meant losing the ability to continually earn threshold upgrades, which for me is a problem with MP. My point was simply that MP and AP are different programs, and the fact that MP has sweetspots, does not instantly make it an inferior program, nor UA a better airline, which has been the thrust of whyfly's posts.

I am happy to accept that AP does not work for all, if it did not work for me, I would seek a program that did, which is what I keep suggesting to whyfly. If having less upgrades from any fare is more important for you than having more upgrades from higher fares then choose that program. I simply know that in MP on UA I would have no way other than using miles, or begging, or buying upgrades, to upgrade my two upcoming LHR trips. AP works and works well for some people and travel patterns. It is not a bad system just because it doesnt offer sweetspots.

Ken, I am still curious about what you would have done in my position regarding LHR (and this is meant as an honest question here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif). I booked 7 days out, so confirmed the outbound at time of booking. Return 4 days later was showing J9C5. Fare in H was $980, which is a great deal.

The only choice I can see is to buy a more flexible fare so that I could change for free if C went to 0. This would be a lot more $$ and something that I still dont feel was necessary. The flight went J9C0 ten minutes after I ticketed.

My decision was to sit tight, based on the fact that I think it will work out, adn that to spend more $$ is unnecessary. I know that LHR is not HKG and that it will likely not be J0. Actually, the flight today is shwoing J9C4 so it may yet work out at 7 days.
I just think that $980, with one way confirmed in J at time of booking is a good deal, and even if it doesnt clear on the return, is still a good deal. I would not choose to spend many more $$ to guarantee J.
I am honestly curious what you would have done if you needed to travel to LHR in similar circumstances.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FatBoyYVR:
[B]Wow, (which I wish to make clear is only that, I never intended to try and speak for others, despite the accusations of this). My point was simply that MP and AP are different programs, and the fact that MP has sweetspots, does not instantly make it an inferior program, nor UA a better airline, which has been the thrust of whyfly's posts.

READ this again "you don't speak for others" then look what you said http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:

Oh AC program "rocks" great bonus points,(after 40Q AC gives us DOUBLE) amazing perk for SE for "free Tickets" I love that perk and use it all the time!
However I think UA upgrades are better for me! You think AC upgrades are better for you! I would like AC to give the same upgrade but just give us a few for lower fare tickets for being SE. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Oh just a small extra I would love to be able to trade them ALSO, like UA program. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: Its almost Christmas can't I ask for everthing http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by why fly:
[b]

[This message has been edited by why fly (edited Nov 26, 2003).]

Just thought of another PERK AC counld offer E and SE some FREE Meal vouchers when we get stuck on Tango fares or FREE drink vouchers, so we can give them to our friends http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Maybe more MLL passes for E members.

Great idea, cos the lounges are so empty these days, it would be good to see them full....

Stuck on Tango fares?? Your choice, not Air Canada's.... Does the fare have anything to do with whether you get a meal?

Keep the suggestions coming, I am sure Aeroplan are carefully recording them all, and I expect to see them implemented anyday soon....

[This message has been edited by FatBoyYVR (edited Nov 27, 2003).]

Do your kids love you http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: A bit lonely in YVR http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I will chip in some points to get you a toaster...

[This message has been edited by why fly (edited Nov 27, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by why fly (edited Nov 27, 2003).]