Nov 20, 2017, 2:16 pm
Last edit by: Argonaut1000
Click here to go to a picture of the White Compensation Form and its stub
View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
----
From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.
Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $500 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest- update - 6 months later the $150 was increased to $500 - admitted they had made an error)
Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)
Standard eCoupon compensation offers (no haggling; following a recurring pattern)
~10+ hours: $1000
Long TPAC (TPE-YVR)
~6 to ~10 hours: $500
Short TPAC (NRT-YVR)
TATL
South America: YYZ-GRU
less than ~6 hours: 300
TCON
Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?
No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...
Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.
There is now an even newer White Form which explicitly lists "deflated seat" and "deflated seat and fixed", among many other items.
Here is a snapshot of the NEWEST full form (as of August 2019), courtesy of lallied
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31421855-post2093.html
This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
----
From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
- Go the home screen "Your Seat". (find this on the seat side panel; not the main video screen)
- Hold the top left hand corner "Air Canada" (with AC logo) for 3 seconds. Updated (Apr 9 18): may need to hold for as long as 45 seconds for key pad to appear
- Dial pad shows up - hit 3-2-1.
- Press "Reset Lumbar Support"
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.
Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $500 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest- update - 6 months later the $150 was increased to $500 - admitted they had made an error)
Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)
Standard eCoupon compensation offers (no haggling; following a recurring pattern)
~10+ hours: $1000
Long TPAC (TPE-YVR)
~6 to ~10 hours: $500
Short TPAC (NRT-YVR)
TATL
South America: YYZ-GRU
less than ~6 hours: 300
TCON
Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?
No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...
Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.
There is now an even newer White Form which explicitly lists "deflated seat" and "deflated seat and fixed", among many other items.
Here is a snapshot of the NEWEST full form (as of August 2019), courtesy of lallied
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31421855-post2093.html
This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight
Mar 2, 2019, 4:10 pm
#1232
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 492
I'm not asking about the order of swapping seats, 24, I'm asking about the ethics of doing so.
Perhaps you feel that swapping out of a deflated seat is mandatory. It is not.
There are no ethical issues if you decide to stay in your assigned seat and not to "boot" or "toss" another person from their functioning seat.
There are no risks of running afoul of cabin crew if you stay in your assigned seat and don't request to "boot" or "toss" another person from their functioning seat.
The rules of musical chairs was noted. But they don't apply if you...wait for it...stay in your assigned seat and don't decide to "boot" or "toss" another person from their functioning seat.
Perhaps you feel that swapping out of a deflated seat is mandatory. It is not.
There are no ethical issues if you decide to stay in your assigned seat and not to "boot" or "toss" another person from their functioning seat.
There are no risks of running afoul of cabin crew if you stay in your assigned seat and don't request to "boot" or "toss" another person from their functioning seat.
The rules of musical chairs was noted. But they don't apply if you...wait for it...stay in your assigned seat and don't decide to "boot" or "toss" another person from their functioning seat.
Mar 2, 2019, 5:37 pm
#1234
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
It's easy enough for you to say if you don't like the service fly someone else. Like whom? WS doesn't fly the routes and have the schedule many of us need (at least domestically) - their Maritime service is laughable and that's being charitable to them. As it stands, DL, UA nor AA are allowed to fly within Canada due to the mythical cabotage regulation meaning you have to drive 1-2 hours south to get "domestic" service with the big 3 airlines. And don't even get me started with PD! And that's saying nothing of the corporate contracts many of us are part of which compel us to fly them on INTL itineraries!
The point of this thread isn't to whine and complain (although there is a decent amount of that going around). It's to document the issues as it stands, point out potential solutions to the issue (i.e. Rondelle reset and #AirCanadaCamping ) and to come up with a unified message to compel AC to take this situation more seriously so that hopefully it will be resolved this decade!
Safe Travels,
James
Mar 2, 2019, 7:12 pm
#1235
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: YVR - MILLS Waypoint (It's the third house on the left)
Programs: AC*SE100K, wood level status in various other programs
Posts: 6,232
'Seatuational' ethics on one hand, organized consumer action on the other.
It seems like this thread is now populated by a mix of philosophers, lawyers and reasonable people. I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out who is who.
It seems like this thread is now populated by a mix of philosophers, lawyers and reasonable people. I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out who is who.
Mar 2, 2019, 10:27 pm
#1236
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: Bottom feeder Star Gold
Posts: 2,652
Originally Posted by Bohemian1
It seems like this thread is now populated by a mix of philosophers, lawyers and reasonable people. I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out who is who.
Originally Posted by j2simpso
My question for you is what are the alternatives? If we don't accept the seat and raise a little hell on board what'll happen to us? Will we get Dao'd?
Originally Posted by j2simpso
It's easy enough for you to say if you don't like the service fly someone else. Like whom? WS doesn't fly the routes and have the schedule many of us need (at least domestically) - their Maritime service is laughable and that's being charitable to them...And don't even get me started with PD!
Mar 2, 2019, 10:46 pm
#1237
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
On which Maritime routes might you get an AC deflated seat? On which domestic routes that WS doesn't offer multiple daily departures could you find yourself in an AC deflated seat? How does Porter's operation enter the debate? I'm curious the relevance of these points.
Simply saying that there exists alternatives is not sufficient when those alternatives are extremely limited in offering, require you to transit in foreign countries,
The point myself, 24left and others have repeatedly tried to make on this thread time and time again is that there may not be a legitimate alternative given the itinerary we have. At which point our options are fly AC in Y or PY which may be fine for a 4 or 5 hour flight, but simply won't cut it for a 12+ hour TPAC segment or even a 6 hour red-eye from the left coast when we have a business meeting that morning!
Safe Travels,
James
Mar 3, 2019, 12:29 pm
#1239
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 492
I don’t know whether it’s a consensus but I can promise you that on at least one occasion I was forced to move to a seat occupied by a sleeping non-rev passenger. I don’t mean I was dragged kicking and screaming down the aisle - but when I got up to identify my seat had deflated yet again ( with the intent to ask for some extra blankets ) the service director Immediately woke the passenger up and asked them to move into my seat even though I had indicated very clearly I was uncomfortable about that and was prepared to make do with additional blankets. I even went and apologized. At the end of the flight I questioned whether I was to get a compensation form as the whole shindig had taken 3 to 4 hours as had been told to try resetting - and was told explicitly that as I have been moved no compensation was due and that furthermore they felt that I had been trying not to move in order to gain compensation.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:29 pm
#1240
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
Instead, making fine use of this Sunday morning to do some research - here is an excerpt.
feedback welcome, and preferably the constructive kind...
I further allege Air Canada knowingly dispatched the aircraft for my flight with a well-known service failing, and that licenced flight crews operated said aircraft potentially contrary to Canadian Aviation Regulations, Sec. 605.22 (1), whereas the integrity / functionality of the "Seat and Safety Belt Requirements" may be comprised due to the deflated mattress, unless Air Canada has demonstrated through current testing the efficacy for travelers, and for flight crews during rest periods, to occupy deflated seats during a range of pre-tested crash conditions. I would add the Competition Act prohibits any public statements for "Performance representations not based on adequate and proper tests". Also, the CARS includes mandatory crew fatigue management techniques, which include in-flight crew rest that may also be compromised by a deflated mattress, for which a flight crew member utilized my original deflated seat for a crew rest period. Plus, Air Canada may be in contravention with regards to CARS, Sec. 705.42 (1) and the associated provisions that requires restraint so “not to obstruct access to safety equipment, exits or the aisles of the aircraft”. For example, nominal consumer reports indicate widespread use of an inflated air mattress to overcome seat failures, which if utilized without effective and continuous restraint may be contrary to the adequate storage requirements as prescribed in Airworthiness Manual, Sec. 551.500, "Restraint of Carry-On Baggage".
feedback welcome, and preferably the constructive kind...
I further allege Air Canada knowingly dispatched the aircraft for my flight with a well-known service failing, and that licenced flight crews operated said aircraft potentially contrary to Canadian Aviation Regulations, Sec. 605.22 (1), whereas the integrity / functionality of the "Seat and Safety Belt Requirements" may be comprised due to the deflated mattress, unless Air Canada has demonstrated through current testing the efficacy for travelers, and for flight crews during rest periods, to occupy deflated seats during a range of pre-tested crash conditions. I would add the Competition Act prohibits any public statements for "Performance representations not based on adequate and proper tests". Also, the CARS includes mandatory crew fatigue management techniques, which include in-flight crew rest that may also be compromised by a deflated mattress, for which a flight crew member utilized my original deflated seat for a crew rest period. Plus, Air Canada may be in contravention with regards to CARS, Sec. 705.42 (1) and the associated provisions that requires restraint so “not to obstruct access to safety equipment, exits or the aisles of the aircraft”. For example, nominal consumer reports indicate widespread use of an inflated air mattress to overcome seat failures, which if utilized without effective and continuous restraint may be contrary to the adequate storage requirements as prescribed in Airworthiness Manual, Sec. 551.500, "Restraint of Carry-On Baggage".
Safe Travels,
James
Last edited by tcook052; Mar 3, 2019 at 5:46 pm Reason: off topic
Mar 3, 2019, 12:55 pm
#1241
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,352
I don’t know whether it’s a consensus but I can promise you that on at least one occasion I was forced to move to a seat occupied by a sleeping non-rev passenger. I don’t mean I was dragged kicking and screaming down the aisle - but when I got up to identify my seat had deflated yet again ( with the intent to ask for some extra blankets ) the service director Immediately woke the passenger up and asked them to move into my seat even though I had indicated very clearly I was uncomfortable about that and was prepared to make do with additional blankets. I even went and apologized. At the end of the flight I questioned whether I was to get a compensation form as the whole shindig had taken 3 to 4 hours as had been told to try resetting - and was told explicitly that as I have been moved no compensation was due and that furthermore they felt that I had been trying not to move in order to gain compensation.
Though in that case, the new seat also deflated.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:58 pm
#1242
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
Perhaps this is something where the expertise of Gábor Lukács or a consumer rights attorney will help us escalate this beyond the SDs we interact with day to day.
If need be I can be the one to pull the trigger here since I rarely fly AC and although I'd like for AC to fix the situation in the long run my rear will more often than not be on UA seats.
-James
Mar 3, 2019, 1:28 pm
#1243
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 492
Its clear that internal communication is poor because you get different stories from different people all the time. Some are quite nasty with it.
And on my last flight, I had to go and re inflate somebody’s seat with the rondell mechanism because it didn’t work the other way and they told him he’d have to put up with it. I waited until they all left and then sidled up. I find it quaint that many don’t seem to know that.
Last edited by lallied; Mar 3, 2019 at 7:02 pm
Mar 3, 2019, 1:39 pm
#1244
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
It’s SD dependent. This one refused point blank until I made a big fuss and even then said had been specifically told never to do. When I wrote in - you can imagine I was not impressed - I was told the SD was wrong.
Its clear that internal communication is poor because you get different stories from different people all the time. Some are quite nasty with it.
And on my last flight, I had to go and re inflate somebody’s seat with the rondell mechanism because it didn’t work the other way and they told him he’d have to put up with it. I waited until they all left and then sidled up. If find it quaint that many don’t seems to know that.
.....On a related matter, I will also suggest that anyone here who gets the idiotic answer I did recently on a long-haul TPAC - where the "experienced" SD insisted that not only had she never had a deflated seat on any of her flights, she also never handed out a form - not accept this nonsense. Either she is a FA FOTSG or she was intentionally withholding the truth. I also decided to educate her a bit with just some of the things made public here on FT, and she repeatedly said "I was not aware of that". I have no idea what she really knew versus what she claimed, but there is not a single SD who I've flown with in the past year at least, who wasn't aware of this.....
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