uanj

This would only be smart. UA is limited to one DCA-SFO flight per day and FC is not always available if you book 1-2 days before travel.

Much more than that. SEA, HKG, NRT, POS, CCS, GRU, EZE, DEL via LHR. UA outgrew their corner in T7 and took a good part of T6. Trans States provided UA marketed commuter flights to many smaller cities, I remember flying DEL-LHR-JFK-BWI on UA. And that was in a different terminal which you accessed by shuttle bus because there were not enough gates in T7.

JFK and MIA were the last markets to be developed under UA's (late 70s early 80s?) business plan. UA intended to be the premier business airline of choice by supporting all of the largest business markets in the US. UA also did a lot of point to point flights to support business travel, this is how JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX got started.

Though we have not heard UA articulating such a strategy, the US market is in need of a true business traveler airline. One we can reliably count on in IRROPS. One that moves mountains when some operational issue causes delays or cxl's. DL comes a bit closer than AA or UA, but it would be a real opportunity for any of the US3 to focus on this.

jmanirish

That's one way of looking at it. UA clearly is hoping this will entice more J pax to actually book UA metal from the west coast. It made no sense to fly LAX-EWR-xxx(in Europe) in J when lax-ewr was in a crappy domestic F seat, when Lax-Fra/muc/Zrh-xxx on LH or Lx were priced identically. Now it swings things a bit more in favor of UA to avoid the infra-Europe "business" and get a lie-flat the whole way. And I can tell you that the lax-Europe business fares are a lot more than the lax-jfk o/d especially after b6 came in.

I've complained a bunch about this because DL and AA all allowed for lie-flat service lax-Europe via Jfk by virtue of having their international flights out of JFK. This was a big gap for UA.

Only time will tell if the extra $$ from more international J traffic from the west coast will (more than?) offset the sure loss from O/D lax-jfk traffic.

It's really unfortunate capacity isn't increasing substantially. Booking 1-2 days out for J travel, I've rarely been able to find an LAX-EWR intl feeder flight with j space available. This is only going to make that worse.

Looks like I'll continue to book LH and GPU to F, and dismiss any GS or MM chances.

cerealmarketer

There's a really interesting look at the route and frequency history at JFK from 1980 onward here - which shows how brief its major operations at JFK were.

http://airlineroute.net/2015/06/18/rp-uajfk/

Basically, during the 1980s the operation was pretty bare bones. 3 flights a day to LA/SF. A bit of Chicago and Denver. UA's core is as a West Coast / Midwest airline. It never had a leading NYC presence.

Then in 1990 Narita was added.

And in 1995 things started to ramp with Heathrow and some Latam routes.

By 2000 it was the operation you speak of.

And by 2005 most was gone. And in 2006 Heathrow / Narita disappeared.

Lesson learned:

United was really a bit player at JFK for most of its history.

The big years were a 5 or so year anomaly from 1995-2000 that was created by United's over aggressive widebody order book.

The pilot union got the upper hand on management while they stretched too far too fast. This and the big payments on those orders were the setup for the massive pain and hangover of the 2000s - which still lingers over the company today.

riphamilton

to be fair, the EWR-LAX/SFO flights are/were never CPU'able in reality. reading through this thread, instrument upgrades often don't clear for 1K's. as a plat, i do a tiger woods fist pump if i'm even on the first page of the UG list at the gate.

Cargojon

I work for a global top 10 employer, so I think I have a fair representation on the matter.

Foreigners thinking of JFK for New York City is their own personal limitation in worldview and lack of understanding of American geography more than it is a telling sign of the superiority of JFK. The ones that actually "get" the US, geography, etc fly into EWR as well as JFK...whichever suits what they're doing and where they'll be when they get here.

I have overseas people that don't understand why you can't send a piece of cargo to JFK when it is destined to go to Indiana.

It's the same reason most Americans think that if you fly to Germany, you fly into Frankfurt. Never mind that you're going to Munich or Stuttgart, you fly into Frankfurt.

BearX220

That's clearly the model DL aspires to domestically, and is showing genuine progress with product, network / route system, key markets, reliability, and irrops recovery.

The jury is obviously still out on what AA will become, the narrowcase A321 transcon proposition notwithstanding.

UA is shrinking from the "true business traveler airline" thing. They want to charge those prices, and the FF program is now mainly suited for OPM-spending business flyers, but they lack the products, key market presence, reliability, or irrops recovery.

bobbysfca

Getting to/from Newark is a mess.

First - getting from the gate to the curb/train takes 3x as long or more. Really. 2 minutes at JFK vs. 8-15 minutes at EWR, depending on gate.

Jersey Ground Transit is slow and Tunnel traffic can be standstill at ANY time.
JFK isn't exactly full speed, but it's significantly better than EWR

And the Air Train?
JFK Air Train is fast, frequent and reliable. The LIRR connections are frequent to NYP. Plus, it connects to the NYC Subway at either Howard Beach or Jamaica.
EWR Air Train is a slow, sporadic sub-amusement park shuttle, a second rate mode. Then NJ Transit??? The most unreliable system I know of. Trains run with half the frequency of the LIRR, and they are typically delayed.

For locals, this move is a real advantage for people who live in New Jersey only. It's a push for West Siders, and a real downgrade for everyone else.


The same 3 stops from Penn Station... (or one stop, or nonstop!) to Jamaica is faster, cheaper and with more frequent service. Then the Air Train is faster and more comfortable at JFK, and you get off 1/4 the distance to your aircraft.

No sir, given my choice, if I'm at NY Penn, I'll choose to go to JFK over EWR ... ANY time.

minnyfly

The thing that is "wrong" is that UA is the only airline with a large hub in NYC. It makes no sense to undercut your own hub by trying to cater to everyone in NYC. JFK is by far the 3rd-child for UA. Only recently did DL turn a profit in NYC (likely thanks to LGA, not JFK). Something is wrong for them too, right? No, it's called too much competition for anyone to turn profits.

UA commanded the highest fares on both LAX-JFK and SFO-JFK. Clearly their C product was highly competitive and isn't the reason for this change. They're moving it out because the competition is so high that it's not worth it.

Those HVHCs didn't help them turn a consistent profit. Are they really "high value" then? No, not at all. They're low-value. Just because they spend a lot of money on a J seat doesn't make then high-value.

The airline you want will be the first to be out of business. The amount of extra costs associated with being so reliable will be easily undercut by more efficient carriers that are just as reliable, except for those few bad days out of the year. Customers have spoken over and over. They will not pay more for premium. Price rules in a near commodity.

physioprof

How awesome would it be if the 7 train went to EWR?

EAA795

Will Y/B fares get instant upgrades? I don't think those were available on p.s. flights.

PsiFighter37

There was consideration of extending the 7 over to Seacaucus last decade, but they nixed it. Extending the 7 only one stop to Hudson Yards was really short-sighted...should have done the drilling to add at least 2 stations on top (one at Chelsea Piers, and the other at 41/10)

FWIW, there does appear to be quite a bit of R availability on the newly-upgraded EWR-LAX/SFO flights. I ran into a very nice United agent on the hotline who, in the process of changing an LAX-JFK to EWR, did me a solid and let me book my outbound EWR-LAX flight an hour earlier with no change fee - snagged R seats on that (I'm continuing on to TPAC, so getting on the waitlist is a no-brainer, IMO, if it means I could get 2 lie-flat flights). She basically treated it like a change to flight itinerary in other words...very nice of her ^

Always Flyin

No. There is just no co-pay.

SunLover

I would not go quite that far. It depended on the day/time and equipment.

As a 1K I had a lot of success with Saturday night SFO/LAX-EWR redeye flights. Otherwise outside of peak business travel times you had a reasonably good chance if the front cabin was 20F/24F. Soon there will be no CPU opportunity on a NYC area non-stop transcon for sure.

Plus JFK-LAX/SFO-JFK route was a great use of an RPU as they almost always cleared. EWR will be tougher because of the increased connecting traffic.


SunLover

EAA795

This is the only thing that I care about with this change. It takes me at least 8 hours, door-to-door, to go SFO-NYC. Ten or 15 minute difference between JFK and EWR is negligible.

UA-NYC

I still maintain it's a temporary blip...I have multiple PS flights in Dec that are still showing as "live". Once they get the schedules corrected, and move everyone over to EWR, all that R space is going to disappear.