Does United comply with the IATA interline Most Significant Carrier baggage fee rule?
Jul 22, 2012, 2:49 pm
#31
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Posts: 8,745
Just another example of the code-share fraud.
They put a United flight number on the flight, but don't kid yourself--it is treated as an LH flight because LH is operating it.
The LH baggage rules will apply regardless of what UA would have done if it had been a UA operated flight.
BTW, LH business class seats are just awful.
They put a United flight number on the flight, but don't kid yourself--it is treated as an LH flight because LH is operating it.
The LH baggage rules will apply regardless of what UA would have done if it had been a UA operated flight.
BTW, LH business class seats are just awful.
Jul 22, 2012, 3:19 pm
#32
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
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All this wailing about "codeshare" and "operating carrier" are missing the actual poster's question and/or showing little knowledge of how UAMP books awards. MrOCTeckels got it right, everybody else is off-topic, wrong, or incompletely answering the question.
1. OP made it clear it is an award ticket.
2. UAMP *never* books awards under a codeshare number. So what happens with codeshare revenue tickets is irrelevant.
3. OP did not mention any UA-operated connections.
4. Ergo LH rules and only LH rules apply.
Now if this was a Revenue ticket, and/or if it had UA connections, then it gets far more interesting, with the intersection of the new DOT baggage rules for USA-touching flights, the new DOT baggage rules for marketing-vs-operating carrier, the new IATA Resolution 302 baggage rules, and the IATA concept of Most Significant Carrier (MSC).
But absolutely zero of that applies to what the poster actually asked us based on the information s/he provided.
Lufthansa rules apply. End of issues. LH rules apply and UA rules have nothing to do with it.
Now as to other cases (all assuming on one ticket):
A. Itinerary that touches USA at all: same bag rules have to apply in both directions of journey, all legs, according to US DOT rules.
B. Itinerary that originates in USA with multiple carriers: First check-in carrier must apply originating Marketing Carrier (codeshare if how sold) rules/fees, but check-in carrier has the option of using the IATA 302 concept of Most Significant Carrier. Modified to be the Marketing carrier of the Most Significant leg, not the Operating Carrier if differ.
C. DOT new rules for Codeshare flight in a journey that involves the USA: Marketing Carrier rules apply.
Don't get confused on "marketing carrier", even before the baggage issue people on FT conflate it with other concepts all the time. It means "carrier whose CODE is on the flight." It does not mean "whose ticket stock it is" - that's the "plating carrier". It does not mean "which airline sold/booked the ticket"- that's just a special case of travel agent.
You can buy a United Airlines-operated flight with a US Airways flight number from American Airlines at aa.com issued by American Airlines even with no AA flights in the itinerary. In that case, if an all-domestic flight, the only thing that matters is the "US" code on the flight number. New DOT rules would require the originating operating airline to apply the Marketing Carrier bag rules. Marketing Carrier=Codeshare=US. US Airways bag fees apply, end of story. Fact that it was "marketed" in terms of "whose store did you buy it from" by AA and ticketed on 001 AA stock is 100% irrelevant.
D. Case C but add a codeshare flight on Lufthansa metal coded as Turkish Airways TK, as the Most Significant Carrier in the journey (the TATL after a USA-domestic originating leg on that UA-op US-coded AA-sold ticket): UA, the originating check-in carrier would have the option to apply TURKISH bag fees instead of US Airways bag fees. Per US DOT, UA could not check your bags in with UA bag fees (US, not UA is the Marketing Carrier for the origination) nor with LH bag fees (TK, not LH, is the Marketing Carrier for the MSC determination).
If you have a programming-type mindset, it's actually a very clear and simple decision tree. If you have a normal mindset
it's murky.
But there's some very straightforward thinking behind it. Think of these principles:
a. Which airline's name is on the flight number? (USA-only rule)
b. Which airline is flying the bags the longest "most significant" distance on the outbound journey? (Worldwide rule, can be used in USA by check-in airline's choice, but modified by marketing carrier principle above and entire-itinerary principle below).
c. If the flight involves the USA at all, make sure that the USA rules are followed for all connecting, round trip return, circle trip legs so that the customer doesn't get told a different story on her way back.
In NO case can the rule anymore be simplified to "check-in carrier rules apply" or "operating carrier rules apply", even though in many cases that may be the outcome of the new rules.
1. OP made it clear it is an award ticket.
2. UAMP *never* books awards under a codeshare number. So what happens with codeshare revenue tickets is irrelevant.
3. OP did not mention any UA-operated connections.
4. Ergo LH rules and only LH rules apply.
Now if this was a Revenue ticket, and/or if it had UA connections, then it gets far more interesting, with the intersection of the new DOT baggage rules for USA-touching flights, the new DOT baggage rules for marketing-vs-operating carrier, the new IATA Resolution 302 baggage rules, and the IATA concept of Most Significant Carrier (MSC).
But absolutely zero of that applies to what the poster actually asked us based on the information s/he provided.
Lufthansa rules apply. End of issues. LH rules apply and UA rules have nothing to do with it.
Now as to other cases (all assuming on one ticket):
A. Itinerary that touches USA at all: same bag rules have to apply in both directions of journey, all legs, according to US DOT rules.
B. Itinerary that originates in USA with multiple carriers: First check-in carrier must apply originating Marketing Carrier (codeshare if how sold) rules/fees, but check-in carrier has the option of using the IATA 302 concept of Most Significant Carrier. Modified to be the Marketing carrier of the Most Significant leg, not the Operating Carrier if differ.
C. DOT new rules for Codeshare flight in a journey that involves the USA: Marketing Carrier rules apply.
Don't get confused on "marketing carrier", even before the baggage issue people on FT conflate it with other concepts all the time. It means "carrier whose CODE is on the flight." It does not mean "whose ticket stock it is" - that's the "plating carrier". It does not mean "which airline sold/booked the ticket"- that's just a special case of travel agent.
You can buy a United Airlines-operated flight with a US Airways flight number from American Airlines at aa.com issued by American Airlines even with no AA flights in the itinerary. In that case, if an all-domestic flight, the only thing that matters is the "US" code on the flight number. New DOT rules would require the originating operating airline to apply the Marketing Carrier bag rules. Marketing Carrier=Codeshare=US. US Airways bag fees apply, end of story. Fact that it was "marketed" in terms of "whose store did you buy it from" by AA and ticketed on 001 AA stock is 100% irrelevant.
D. Case C but add a codeshare flight on Lufthansa metal coded as Turkish Airways TK, as the Most Significant Carrier in the journey (the TATL after a USA-domestic originating leg on that UA-op US-coded AA-sold ticket): UA, the originating check-in carrier would have the option to apply TURKISH bag fees instead of US Airways bag fees. Per US DOT, UA could not check your bags in with UA bag fees (US, not UA is the Marketing Carrier for the origination) nor with LH bag fees (TK, not LH, is the Marketing Carrier for the MSC determination).
If you have a programming-type mindset, it's actually a very clear and simple decision tree. If you have a normal mindset
it's murky. But there's some very straightforward thinking behind it. Think of these principles:
a. Which airline's name is on the flight number? (USA-only rule)
b. Which airline is flying the bags the longest "most significant" distance on the outbound journey? (Worldwide rule, can be used in USA by check-in airline's choice, but modified by marketing carrier principle above and entire-itinerary principle below).
c. If the flight involves the USA at all, make sure that the USA rules are followed for all connecting, round trip return, circle trip legs so that the customer doesn't get told a different story on her way back.
In NO case can the rule anymore be simplified to "check-in carrier rules apply" or "operating carrier rules apply", even though in many cases that may be the outcome of the new rules.
Jul 22, 2012, 3:26 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London, UK
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Posts: 2,372
The bit I find murky is the "can choose to apply MSC rules" does anyone know if UA chooses to or not, I can't see anything on their website and I don't trust a call centre agent to get it right.
Jul 22, 2012, 3:50 pm
#34
Original Poster
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They did it for me recently on a DEN-IAD(UA)-PTY-MVD(Copa) flight.
UA-issued ticket, happened to be a MP award. UA charges for a 2nd bag international to deep South America, Copa gives two free bags. I had two bags, no longer have any *A status, did not get charged.
I did politely mention the MSC rule to the nice "Special Services" agent I was checking in with along with my Copa Cabina Cat. I don't know what would have automatically come up at a kiosk which I would have been forced to start at if I didn't have Mr. Blackcomb the Black Cat with me.
The agent did have to call and was on the phone about 5 minutes to figure out the pre-arranged and pre-paid cabin pet checkin, but that might have just been typical post-3/3 SHARES hassles. She did mention once to her support desk "the passenger says the bags should be free because Copa is the first international carrier", but there didn't seem to be a lot of discussion on the bags, just on the cat. I'm guessing the bags getting the CM rules and thus free was automatic.
There is zero on any UA site about how this works or about the new rules at all. And I'm guessing zero training. Which is shameful. But not surprising.
For an example of an airline that does it right, look at this page from LAN specifically on inter-airline flights, with full explanation of the MSC concept, the different regions, the hierarchy of rules for determining MSC, and the info that it's been in effect since April 2011, now 18 months ago! Compared to buptkus from UA.
http://www.lan.com/en_us/sitio_perso...info_iata.html
They've even updated it for the US DOT rules, about the originating allowance applying all ways if the origin/destination is USA. And with the codeshare concept, though at least in English they have used the confusing term "airline that sold the ticket". But I have confidence that LAN does it right. Not with UA.
For a domestic competitor with extensive international codeshare and through-ticketing-no-codeshare arrangements too, look at Alaska Airlines' baggage info page:
http://www.alaskaair.com/content/tra...lInfo-policies
Though less detailed on the mechanics of IATA 302, they clearly include this verbiage:
"Baggage charges outlined below are for travel wholly on Alaska Airlines or when connecting to a domestic US flight on another carrier within 12 hours of arriving in the connection city. Customers connecting to an international flight on another carrier within 12 hours of arriving in the connection city shall follow the baggage allowance and charges set forth by the international carrier provided a ticketing/baggage agreement is in place with the other carrier."
This from AS, which you really have to look at as a "virtual carrier" that combines the entire AS, AA, and DL networks domestically with shared elite benefits, as well as a number of both oneworld and SkyTeam foreign carriers.
So two big, profitable, better-rated carriers can manage to get this right and communicate it to their customers and prospective customers. But United can't.
They'll probably do it right at check-in. But I would be prepared with documentation on IATA Resolution 302 and the DOT rules, because they obviously haven't bothered to communicate nor train on this issue.
UA-issued ticket, happened to be a MP award. UA charges for a 2nd bag international to deep South America, Copa gives two free bags. I had two bags, no longer have any *A status, did not get charged.
I did politely mention the MSC rule to the nice "Special Services" agent I was checking in with along with my Copa Cabina Cat. I don't know what would have automatically come up at a kiosk which I would have been forced to start at if I didn't have Mr. Blackcomb the Black Cat with me.
The agent did have to call and was on the phone about 5 minutes to figure out the pre-arranged and pre-paid cabin pet checkin, but that might have just been typical post-3/3 SHARES hassles. She did mention once to her support desk "the passenger says the bags should be free because Copa is the first international carrier", but there didn't seem to be a lot of discussion on the bags, just on the cat. I'm guessing the bags getting the CM rules and thus free was automatic.
There is zero on any UA site about how this works or about the new rules at all. And I'm guessing zero training. Which is shameful. But not surprising.
For an example of an airline that does it right, look at this page from LAN specifically on inter-airline flights, with full explanation of the MSC concept, the different regions, the hierarchy of rules for determining MSC, and the info that it's been in effect since April 2011, now 18 months ago! Compared to buptkus from UA.
http://www.lan.com/en_us/sitio_perso...info_iata.html
They've even updated it for the US DOT rules, about the originating allowance applying all ways if the origin/destination is USA. And with the codeshare concept, though at least in English they have used the confusing term "airline that sold the ticket". But I have confidence that LAN does it right. Not with UA.
For a domestic competitor with extensive international codeshare and through-ticketing-no-codeshare arrangements too, look at Alaska Airlines' baggage info page:
http://www.alaskaair.com/content/tra...lInfo-policies
Though less detailed on the mechanics of IATA 302, they clearly include this verbiage:
"Baggage charges outlined below are for travel wholly on Alaska Airlines or when connecting to a domestic US flight on another carrier within 12 hours of arriving in the connection city. Customers connecting to an international flight on another carrier within 12 hours of arriving in the connection city shall follow the baggage allowance and charges set forth by the international carrier provided a ticketing/baggage agreement is in place with the other carrier."
This from AS, which you really have to look at as a "virtual carrier" that combines the entire AS, AA, and DL networks domestically with shared elite benefits, as well as a number of both oneworld and SkyTeam foreign carriers.
So two big, profitable, better-rated carriers can manage to get this right and communicate it to their customers and prospective customers. But United can't.
They'll probably do it right at check-in. But I would be prepared with documentation on IATA Resolution 302 and the DOT rules, because they obviously haven't bothered to communicate nor train on this issue.
Jul 26, 2012, 8:02 pm
#35
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,032
Why does the United checked baggage calculator say this:
Originally Posted by https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/travel/Pages/CheckedBaggage.aspx
Checked baggage service charges apply at any point where bags are checked. For a trip that includes one or more connections, bags will be checked to your final destination, and the charge for checking a bag from your origin to your destination will apply. For a trip that includes a voluntary stopover, your bags will be checked to your stopover point, where you will collect your bags. When you resume travel, you may check your bags again, subject to applicable charges from the new point of check-in to the destination.
Last edited by abcx; Jul 27, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Jul 27, 2012, 2:45 pm
#36
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: MileagePlus
Posts: 412
Why does the United checked baggage calculator say this:
Is UA incapable of comprehending that rule 399.87 covers stopovers and it is not permissible to charge again/differently at a stopover or a turnaround point?
Originally Posted by https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/tra...edBaggage.aspx
Checked baggage service charges apply at any point where bags are checked. For a trip that includes one or more connections, bags will be checked to your final destination, and the charge for checking a bag from your origin to your destination will apply. For a trip that includes a voluntary stopover, your bags will be checked to your stopover point, where you will collect your bags. When you resume travel, you may check your bags again, subject to applicable charges from the new point of check-in to the destination.
Checked baggage service charges apply at any point where bags are checked. For a trip that includes one or more connections, bags will be checked to your final destination, and the charge for checking a bag from your origin to your destination will apply. For a trip that includes a voluntary stopover, your bags will be checked to your stopover point, where you will collect your bags. When you resume travel, you may check your bags again, subject to applicable charges from the new point of check-in to the destination.
Is UA incapable of comprehending that rule 399.87 covers stopovers and it is not permissible to charge again/differently at a stopover or a turnaround point?
Jul 27, 2012, 3:10 pm
#37
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,032
All 14 CFR 399.87 says is the baggage allowance and fees of the marketing carrier at the beginning of a trip will apply for the entire journey. Each time you apply a bag tag (i.e., check a bag) to a bag you may be charged the applicable fee. You can't charge differently at the stopover but you most certainly can charge again.
Isn't it wonderful how UA and all the other airlines suddenly figured out how to do this now that the DoT is enforcing the rule!
Sep 28, 2012, 7:42 pm
#38
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 887
ORD-CDG [UA] - BKK [TG]
BKK - KRB [TG]
HKT - BKK - PEK [TG] - PEK [UA]
What is my baggage allowance on the return flight (starting from HKT)? Economy Class with no status. Ticket was done with miles. TG would be the first int'l carrier, but not crossing Tarrif Conference Areas (UA does that)....
Thanks.
BKK - KRB [TG]
HKT - BKK - PEK [TG] - PEK [UA]
What is my baggage allowance on the return flight (starting from HKT)? Economy Class with no status. Ticket was done with miles. TG would be the first int'l carrier, but not crossing Tarrif Conference Areas (UA does that)....
Thanks.
Oct 6, 2012, 2:53 pm
#39
Join Date: Sep 2007
Programs: * Alliance Gold
Posts: 186
With regards to international flights, which baggage policy would apply? The ticket is issued by United, and on their website it says that the policy of the marketing carrier would apply. I've 2 scenarios for the first flight (the segments after that shouldn't affect the baggage policy I guess), is this the correct baggage policy? I'm mainly wondering about the policy on the return flight from SFO-CAI whose first flight is operated by UA.
Scenario A:
Cairo-Frankfurt: UA XXXX, its a codeshare. Operated by Lufthansa. This means that UA rules would apply throughout?
Scenario B:
Cairo-Frankfurt: LH XXXX, its a codeshare. Operated by Egyptair. This means that Egyptair rules apply throughout?
Thanks a lot for your help!
I spoke with United a few times and sometimes I get conflicting information.
Forgot to mention that I have star alliance gold and flying in economy
Scenario A:
Cairo-Frankfurt: UA XXXX, its a codeshare. Operated by Lufthansa. This means that UA rules would apply throughout?
Scenario B:
Cairo-Frankfurt: LH XXXX, its a codeshare. Operated by Egyptair. This means that Egyptair rules apply throughout?
Thanks a lot for your help!
I spoke with United a few times and sometimes I get conflicting information.
Forgot to mention that I have star alliance gold and flying in economy
Last edited by iluv2fly; Oct 6, 2012 at 5:04 pm Reason: merge
Oct 6, 2012, 3:39 pm
#42
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
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You are going SFO-CAI. Since you are going between U.S. and whatever you are going, so the U.S. baggage policy will apply (2 pieces baggage, 23kg/50lb maximum each).
Since you are a *G, you will have one more.
The issue is will they allow 32kg/70lb or 23kg/50lb.
Since you are a *G, you will have one more.
The issue is will they allow 32kg/70lb or 23kg/50lb.
Oct 6, 2012, 4:40 pm
#43
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Posts: 3
I can confirm what garykung has listed as accurate after a discussion with a GA a few weeks ago. The global baggage policy follows where you start. With *G I can tell you from experience over 50lb will not be a problem.
Last edited by FlyDog22; Oct 6, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Oct 6, 2012, 6:24 pm
#44
Join Date: Sep 2007
Programs: * Alliance Gold
Posts: 186
My flight is the other way around.
CAI-FRA-SFO
then the return is SFO-CAI-SFO
From the United site it says: "Please note that as required by the U.S. Department of Transportation regulation, baggage service charges for your entire itinerary are determined by the marketing carrier for the first segment of your itinerary."
So basically the first leg is CAI-FRA. The flight has a Lufthansa code (LH7175), however it is operated by Egyptair (its a codeshare). Would the Egyptair or Lufthansa rules apply? In this case, would LH be considered the marketing carrier?
CAI-FRA-SFO
then the return is SFO-CAI-SFO
From the United site it says: "Please note that as required by the U.S. Department of Transportation regulation, baggage service charges for your entire itinerary are determined by the marketing carrier for the first segment of your itinerary."
So basically the first leg is CAI-FRA. The flight has a Lufthansa code (LH7175), however it is operated by Egyptair (its a codeshare). Would the Egyptair or Lufthansa rules apply? In this case, would LH be considered the marketing carrier?
Mar 2, 2013, 2:16 am
#45
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 36
I just booked SFO-EWR-CDG; CDG-FRA-SFO. All are UA marketed and operated flights, except that CDG-FRA is operated by LH. UA is stating on my receipt that I get 2 free bags up to 70 lbs on the outbound (really 3 bags since I'm gold), but only 1 free bag up to 50 lbs on the return. Doesn't that directly contradict the DOT regulation, or can they still do it because they stated it on the receipt?