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Does United comply with the IATA interline Most Significant Carrier baggage fee rule?

Does United comply with the IATA interline Most Significant Carrier baggage fee rule?

Old May 24, 2012, 12:19 am
  #1  
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Does United comply with the IATA interline Most Significant Carrier baggage fee rule?

Or will I have to file a DOT complaint after UA checks me in for my upcoming DEN-IAD(UA)-PTY-MVD(CM) flight in two weeks, and a Visa card dispute for the unjustified fee?

The last time I was on an international flight that involved UA as the first/check-in carrier, UA agents were parroting the "I've been doing this for 20 years and it's the check-in carrier's rules that apply." (SEA, Nov 2011 for a SEA-IAH-MIA(UA)-MVD(AA) itinerary).

Based on when the ticket was purchased, before July 1 2011, AA gave 2 free bags and was the MSC under the IATA 302 rule. UA checked bags through but demanded, wrongfully, 2nd bag fee. The fact that AA is a competitor and never a partner is irrelevant to the IATA ruling. One journey, Most Significant Carrier determination, that carrier's rules for fees apply. It was disgusting that your agents had not even heard of this ruling.

I can fully understand that they might have had to look up the AA bag fee, but there is no excuse for them not even knowing of the existence of this industry-wide new rule.

For the record, whenever an airline employee pulls out that "doing it for 20 years" BS, that means they haven't bothered to read policy memos and updates for at least a decade. Which means in this case, that they are doing it wrong for about the past year.

Copa gives 2 free bags on USA-South America routes. Copa is the first airline to cross an international boundary and the first to cross an intercontinental boundary, so by the IATA Resolution 302 MSC concept, they are the carrier whose baggage fees (zero) are required to apply to the entire itinerary.

Yet UA has nada on their website about the MSC concept whatsoever. I fully expect UA is going to demand $70 for my second bag. That is 100% wrong in TODAY's world, even though for the past 19 years before the past 1 year, it would be correct. (Well assuming there had been fees 20 years ago, which there were not...)

Ticket happens to be a UA MP award, issued by UA, with native CM coding on the CM flights, but according to the IATA rule, that should be irrelevant.

United Insider or anybody else with real knowledge/ability to make things happen, are you following this rule yet? It's been in full effect for months.

Responsible airlines like Alaska (https://www.alaskaair.com/content/tr...Info-policies: Customers connecting to an international flight on another carrier within 12 hours of arriving in the connection city shall follow the baggage allowance and charges set forth by the international carrier provided a ticketing/baggage agreement is in place with the other carrier) and LAN do have mention of it right on their own website baggage pages.

Por ejemplo, LAN makes it very clear that this has been an IATA rule since April 2011: http://www.lan.com/en_us/sitio_perso...info_iata.html

Originally Posted by LAN Airlines IATA Baggage Rules Page
If the allowances are different, the allowance of the most significant carrier for the route checked in for applies. The most significant carrier is chosen according to definitions provided by IATA...

The most significant carrier is decided in the following order:

- The first carrier that crosses from one zone to another. E.g. A: the carrier that crosses from America to Europe.
- The first carrier that crosses from one sub-area to another. E.g. B: the carrier that crosses from Europe to Africa or from South to North America.
- The first international carrier of that zone when travel is within a sub-area. E.g. C: the first international carrier on a journey from Santiago to Lima.
Your ATI partner ANA has some mention of it too. As does a Finnair-centric site. It's worldwide. http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/asw...e/baggage.html
http://newsletter.smt.fi/2011/04/07/...baggage-rules/

What's wrong with you, UA? This is not supposed to be optional, not carrier-choice. It's the rules of the IATA. Yet I 99.9% know you are going to rip me off and are likely doing so to thousands of travelers every day with interline international flights connectiong to carriers with more generous baggage allowances.

What can you do to assure me that you will follow the correct, current rules when I check in, and not the obsolete-but-profitable rules that your poorly-trained staff believe are the rules?
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 5:25 am
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Ok I asked this exact question yesterday (united domestic connecting to NZ TPAC) and was told it was check in carrier rules. Does this rule apply to over size luggage too (i.e. surfboard fees)?
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 6:26 am
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As UA is a member of the IATA they should follow the IATA rule. That being said expect to end up paying the charge and then disputing the charge with or without success.
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 6:33 am
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Is there a DOCUMENT that we could PRINT OUT and CARRY with us to the Airport and show their STAFF that these are the RULES that they may not have read/ refreshed. ??

I am sure a PRINTED PROPER RULES DOCUMENT could do something/ have some influence?

Does this apply to CROSS-CONTINENTAL travel between all continents or only Certain Continents / Airlines?

Last edited by xmlsoa; Jun 4, 2012 at 6:59 am
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 6:35 am
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Isn't there a rule in the US that as long as the trip starts in the US the domestic laws prevail, which state that the checkin carrier's baggage allowances prevail? I am not 100% sure but I think there were several discussions around here regarding this.
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 6:45 am
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Originally Posted by xmlsoa
Is there a DOCUMENT that we could PRINT OUT and CARRY with US to the Airport and show their STAFF that these are the RULES that they may not have read/ refreshed. ??

I am sure a PRINTED PROPER RULES DOCUMENT could do something?
Not sure if this will help, but see slide 40 (and on) here:

http://www.iata.org/worldwide/europe...ted_110913.pdf

There are also these (which are less informative):

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/stb/pages/abr.aspx

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/stb/Doc..._Factsheet.pdf
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 7:50 am
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Originally Posted by cafri
Not sure if this will help, but see slide 40 (and on) here:

http://www.iata.org/worldwide/europe...ted_110913.pdf

There are also these (which are less informative):

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/stb/pages/abr.aspx

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/stb/Doc..._Factsheet.pdf
Interesting. Slide 40 outlines the provision for MSC, which appears to be CM, in this case. However, it also states that "If MSC does not publish its provision, apply the rule of the Check-in carrier."

Slide 41 also says, "In the case of code share flights that include a point in the US, the MSC shall be the Marketing carrier."

So 2 questions.

1) Who is the marketing carrier? If it is UA, the US DoT reservation on codeshare flights would seem to apply, deeming the agent correct. If not, then...
2) Does CM publish its provision? If not, then the agent would seem to be correct, again. If CM does (and I don't know how you'd go about finding this out), then the agent would appear to be incorrect.

EDIT: This, of course, assumes the powerpoint is correct and not just a draft, and that I'm interpreting the statements correctly.
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 7:53 am
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US DOT rules supersede IATA rules.

The US DOT agreed to the IATA rules with the exception of using the Most significant marketing carrier. Those went in to effect on 24 January 2012. When was the ticket purchased?
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Old Jun 4, 2012, 7:59 am
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Originally Posted by MarkXS
Or will I have to file a DOT complaint after UA checks me in for my upcoming DEN-IAD(UA)-PTY-MVD(CM) flight in two weeks, and a Visa card dispute for the unjustified fee?

The last time I was on an international flight that involved UA as the first/check-in carrier, UA agents were parroting the "I've been doing this for 20 years and it's the check-in carrier's rules that apply." (SEA, Nov 2011 for a SEA-IAH-MIA(UA)-MVD(AA) itinerary).

Based on when the ticket was purchased, before July 1 2011, AA gave 2 free bags and was the MSC under the IATA 302 rule. UA checked bags through but demanded, wrongfully, 2nd bag fee. The fact that AA is a competitor and never a partner is irrelevant to the IATA ruling. One journey, Most Significant Carrier determination, that carrier's rules for fees apply. It was disgusting that your agents had not even heard of this ruling.

I can fully understand that they might have had to look up the AA bag fee, but there is no excuse for them not even knowing of the existence of this industry-wide new rule.

For the record, whenever an airline employee pulls out that "doing it for 20 years" BS, that means they haven't bothered to read policy memos and updates for at least a decade. Which means in this case, that they are doing it wrong for about the past year.

Copa gives 2 free bags on USA-South America routes. Copa is the first airline to cross an international boundary and the first to cross an intercontinental boundary, so by the IATA Resolution 302 MSC concept, they are the carrier whose baggage fees (zero) are required to apply to the entire itinerary.

Yet UA has nada on their website about the MSC concept whatsoever. I fully expect UA is going to demand $70 for my second bag. That is 100% wrong in TODAY's world, even though for the past 19 years before the past 1 year, it would be correct. (Well assuming there had been fees 20 years ago, which there were not...)

Ticket happens to be a UA MP award, issued by UA, with native CM coding on the CM flights, but according to the IATA rule, that should be irrelevant.

United Insider or anybody else with real knowledge/ability to make things happen, are you following this rule yet? It's been in full effect for months.

Responsible airlines like Alaska (https://www.alaskaair.com/content/tr...Info-policies: Customers connecting to an international flight on another carrier within 12 hours of arriving in the connection city shall follow the baggage allowance and charges set forth by the international carrier provided a ticketing/baggage agreement is in place with the other carrier) and LAN do have mention of it right on their own website baggage pages.

Por ejemplo, LAN makes it very clear that this has been an IATA rule since April 2011: http://www.lan.com/en_us/sitio_perso...info_iata.html



Your ATI partner ANA has some mention of it too. As does a Finnair-centric site. It's worldwide. http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/asw...e/baggage.html
http://newsletter.smt.fi/2011/04/07/...baggage-rules/

What's wrong with you, UA? This is not supposed to be optional, not carrier-choice. It's the rules of the IATA. Yet I 99.9% know you are going to rip me off and are likely doing so to thousands of travelers every day with interline international flights connectiong to carriers with more generous baggage allowances.

What can you do to assure me that you will follow the correct, current rules when I check in, and not the obsolete-but-profitable rules that your poorly-trained staff believe are the rules?
Here's Delta's explanation of why the agent is correct.

https://www.worldagentdirect.com/del...tCode=BAG_IATA
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Old Jun 5, 2012, 3:57 pm
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14 CFR 399.87 Baggage allowances and fees is the applicable US law. It is applicable to passengers whose ultimate ticketed origin or destination is a U.S. point and to both U.S. and foreign carriers. It basically states the baggage allowance and fee rules of the marketing carrier (i.e., the carrier whose code is on the ticket) on the first leg of an itinerary shall apply throughout the entire journey.

It's effective date is 24 Jan 2012. However, the US DOT has decided not enforce section 399.87 until 24 July 2012 as long as the following conditions are met:

First, carriers will be expected at a minimum to disclose on e-ticket confirmations that additional airline fees for baggage may apply and provide a link from the e-ticket confirmation to the code-share or interline partner websites where the passenger can follow a link and find the baggage allowance and fee information. (This is a requirement of 14 CFR 399.85 - Notice of baggage fees and other fees)

Second, carriers will be expected to reimburse upon request any passenger that was not charged the same baggage fees throughout his/her itinerary if that resulted in the passenger being overcharged.

The following site provides access to the actual law, a Powerpoint presentation summarizing the law, and a FAQ document
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/rules.htm

Last edited by SFOFastAir; Jun 5, 2012 at 4:04 pm Reason: added reference
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Old Jun 5, 2012, 4:16 pm
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Originally Posted by whlinder
US DOT rules supersede IATA rules.

The US DOT agreed to the IATA rules with the exception of using the Most significant marketing carrier. Those went in to effect on 24 January 2012. When was the ticket purchased?
Perfectly well stated and cited. Yes, the DOT won't "enforce it" in the sense of issuing fines/fees, but the regulation is effective.

Funny that the OP is now very silent after a very loud rant.
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Old Jun 5, 2012, 4:45 pm
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On a side note the DOT has been pretty aggressive assigning penalties (around $40,000 - 80,000) for violations of the full-fare price rule (part of 14 CFR 399.84) that went in to effect on 24 Jan 2012.

If you feel that you were over charged on bag fees then apply for a refund with the airline (note this type of refund generally cannot be done at an airport ticket counter or ticket office) citing 14 CFR 399.87. If your refund is not approved but you feel it falls within the requirements of 399.87 file a complaint with the US DOT.

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/CP_AirlineService.htm - Airline Service Complaints and Comments

Complaints may be submitted online at the above web site, by phone 24 hours a day at 202-366-2220 (TTY 202-366-0511) or by mail at the address listed on the above web site.
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Old Jun 6, 2012, 10:40 am
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I have a similar thread going on in the Air New Zealand forum about baggage allowance for a many-segment award trip on UA/NZ. I have sent my question to NZ via website. Will post their answer on that thread.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-n...ch-flight.html

(Not sure if above link to the other forum will work. )
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Old Jun 7, 2012, 12:56 pm
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My question is slightly off topic from OP's discussion, yet still relevant, so I would ask it in this thread.

I have this itinerary booked in Y:
SFO-YVR UA
YVR-NRT AC
NRT-PEK CA
All are connecting flights with 3-hour layover.
AC is apparently the MSC and UA allows two free bags to Japan. Will UA charge $70 for a second check-in bag b/c the final destination is in China?
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Old Jun 8, 2012, 1:50 pm
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United and interline bag rule

Looks like United will wait to the last minute to implement 14 CFR 399.87. US DOT previously announced it would delay enforcement of 14 CFR 399.87 which is the US take on IATA resolution 302 on Baggage fees and allowances until 24 July 2012.

I found the following on SAS's web site while reviewing how carriers were notifying people of the requirements of either IATA 302 of 14 CFR 399.87

Travel to and from the US
Generally, the same rules apply for travel to and from the US. There are three exceptions:
  • Other rules apply for so-called codeshare flights. To and from the US, the airline with which you have booked and is stated in your ticket and travel documents determines the baggage concept.
  • The baggage rules apply both for outbound and inbound travel. For example, if SAS' baggage concept applies on your journey to the US, it is also SAS' baggage concept that applies on the return even if you have been away and make a stopover.
  • Our partner United Airlines will apply its own baggage fees regardless of the codeshare rules and rules for outbound and inbound travel until the end of July. You may be charged for check-in baggage if you start your journey in the US. Read more about the baggage allowance and fee policies for United Airlines here: www.united.com/baggageservices
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