Often1

[QUOTE=SFOFastAir;18723017]Looks like United will wait to the last minute to implement 14 CFR 399.87. US DOT previously announced it would delay enforcement of 14 CFR 399.87 which is the US take on IATA resolution 302 on Baggage fees and allowances until 24 July 2012.

I found the following on SAS's web site while reviewing how carriers were notifying people of the requirements of either IATA 302 of 14 CFR 399.87

Travel to and from the US
Generally, the same rules apply for travel to and from the US. There are three exceptions:

• Other rules apply for so-called codeshare flights. To and from the US, the airline with which you have booked and is stated in your ticket and travel documents determines the baggage concept.
• The baggage rules apply both for outbound and inbound travel. For example, if SAS' baggage concept applies on your journey to the US, it is also SAS' baggage concept that applies on the return even if you have been away and make a stopover.
• Our partner United Airlines will apply its own baggage fees regardless of the codeshare rules and rules for outbound and inbound travel until the end of July. You may be charged for check-in baggage if you start your journey in the US. Read more about the baggage allowance and fee policies for United Airlines here: www.united.com/baggageservices

[/QUOTE

Not surprising that UA, along with DL, AA & US, are doing this because they are the carriers which asked for the delay. There remain multiple situations in which the DOT rules will be unworkable, will wind up being ignored by intra-EU and intra-Asia carriers (ones which do not operate to/from the USA) and the USA carriers will wind up with the brunt of the consumer dissatisfaction and DOT won't be able to do anything.

Just like the tarmac delay rules which seemed to be a great idea until they led to preventive cancellations, these rules weren't well thought through.

gobluetwo

I think UA's rule would apply due to the DoT exclusion. Good question about which destination takes precedence. I would think final destination, PEK.

abcx

Apologies in advance for the long post.

Posting here for lack of a better place and this is sort of on-topic since this was a UA issued award ticket. Ticket was originally issued sometime in Sep 2011, but last reissue was in June 2012.

So I was traveling as follows:

SFO-FRA UA F (check in baggage allowance is 3 bags of 70 lbs)
FRA-DEL LH F
DEL-LHR VS C (no problem with baggage allowance for reasons I don't want to get into)
LHR-BRU-JFK SN C

I was traveling with 3 bags since I was moving residence and I was relying on the MSC rule to avoid paying bag fees.

Had a massive showdown at LHR this morning with two or three Menzies aviation contract workers working for Swiss/Brussels (apparently, Swiss collects baggage fees for SN at LHR). Check in agents wanted to charge 120GBP for third bag since SN's allowance in C is 2 check in bags. I was relying on IATA's MSC rule, but all my protestations about it were overruled. Perhaps unwisely, I left this to the airport figuring that I'd be able to argue my way out of it if they didn't already know about the MSC rule.

I was wrong. The agents point blank refused to look up the rule and like the OP, I was given the same BS excuse that they'd been doing it 20 years. They were rude in more ways than one and they wanted me to "apologize" when they showed me the allowance on the SN website, which I was already knew full well. This was so far out of line that I really wanted to tell them that the reason they'd been working a check-in counter for 20 years was because they had no brains. But the agent had a mean vindictive flair and I didn't want to mess around too much, lest my bags get mysteriously lost.

They sent me to UA to get the ticket reissued (this was like 1.5 hrs before the flight) with UA's "baggage allowance written in it" (whatever that means). They claimed SN would then honor UA's F allowance - this sounded like BS to me because I've never heard of baggage allowance being written in a ticket and they could easily have called or walked over to UA and checked their F allowance, or even looked it up at united.com. Anyway, I thought I'll give it a shot but there was a long line at the UA counter so I didn't get to speak to anyone and I doubt they would have reissued the ticket the way SN wanted it - I'm pretty sure it was just an excuse that the agents made up to waste my time. I had only 50 mins left for the flight and I hadn't cleared security so I paid the fee for the 3rd bag, noted "under duress" on the CC receipt, got a photocopy and figured I'll take it up with SN when I get home.

Whether we apply the IATA MSC rule or DoT's 14 CFR 399.87, it is clear that UA's F allowance on SFO-FRA should reign.

Now I have a few questions:

1. I assume I have to take this up with SN and not UA since SN are the ones who incorrectly assessed the baggage fee. But this quote from the DoT FAQ on EAPP #2 suggests they will hold the ticket agent, i.e. UA, responsible:

I will call the SN office in the US tomorrow but don't have any hope for getting through to someone who knows what to do. But it seems the DoL holds UA liable since they sold the ticket and they are the ones supposed to make me whole and reclaim it from SN on their own time. Needless to say, I am dreading calling UA and getting some idiot at the ICC.

2. I'm thinking of filing a DoT complaint against SN if SN refuses to do anything. Or should I file against UA? Am I right in thinking that I am due a refund even if the rule is not being enforced? Based on the information in post 10, I think the answer is yes. Even if the rule is not being enforced, it is in place and so should apply.

3. Hopefully the DoT complaint will solve the issue but if not, will small claims side court based on the above stated CFR? I am obviously not a lawyer, and I know the risks of asking legal questions on an Internet forum, but I know for a fact that some FTers are more knowledgable about such issues that me, so I figure it can't hurt.

P.S. - Post #10 was really helpful. Thanks SFOFastAir.

MarkXS

I missed the replies to this; not sure why, just zoned out after a couple of weeks in Uruguay.

Here's what did happen at DEN:
1. Snarled at by gatekeeper at coach checkin when I was confused at where to go to check in with an in-cabin pet. But eventually got to "Additional Services" which was in the old days the start of the low-Permier area.

2. I mentioned the IATA rule to the nice agent and that CM was the most significant carrier.

3. She wasn't really sure, but had a phone call to make anyhow for some (likely SHARES-unfamiliarity) issue before she could fully check me, my bags, and my cat in. I heard her mention "he says the bags should be free because it's Copa".

4. I got my bags checked without paying. Didn't seem to be a waiver/favor, but did seem to need intervention.

5. No idea what would have happened if it had been a typical fully-routine coach no-pet-involved check-in.

Also, the $125 pre-paid cabin cat fee to United fully covered the Copa Cabin Cat fee of $75 as far as Copa was concerned, despite what United ICC told me. I was worried I was going to have to exit airside at IAD as explicitly told by UA ICC to pay the Copa fee at the Copa ticket counter. Something I did not want to do with me and my cat hanging out airside. Took the risk to go to the Copa concourse B gate, with not enough time left to go groundside and back with a cat and a portable litter box. No problems at all.

abcx

Anyone have any advice?

joshwex90

Was the LHR-BRU-JFK flight its own flight, or was everything one long flight? If the former, then the agent was right. You don't get a higher allowance just because a different flight allowed it. For example, if you fly EWR-FRA in BF and then return FRA-EWR in Y, you get 3X70 for the outbound but just 1X50 for the return. Sounds like that's what happened here.

abcx

Everything was one long flight on the same ticket but there were stopovers in DEL and LHR. I don't think a stopover changes anything because the DoT rule isn't framed in terms of a stopover, and what difference is a stopover going to make? It's not like a passenger can be expected to dump a bag at the stopover point if the next flight has a lower allowance, right?

I think the baggage allowance for the whole ticket should be the same as that for the first flight even if there is a change in class of service because a) the DoT rule doesn't say anything about class of service b) SN does not have a higher class of service than business and neither does VS. So if I'm flying C on SN and VS on the way back, I don't see why I'm not covered by the rule.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Similarly, if you are flying Y on a intra-Europe feeder flight to a TATL back to the US in F, doesn't the F flight's allowance reign for the intra-Europe flight?

joshwex90

If the stopover is more than 24 hours, I believe that's considered a new flight, and then new baggage rules for the next flight would apply

chavala

I've read through all these posts but I'm still confused. If I fly MLE-SIN SQ biz / SIN-NRT-SFO UA FC.... all on one ticket with UA tkt number... Will I be able to follow UA's rule of 3 bags at 70lbs each? Or will I be held to SQ's 2x 50lb per bag rule?
And which document can I print to back this rule up, is it applies?

abcx

Just did some more research. I think you are right when it comes to the IATA MSC rule, but it seems the DoT rule for journeys originating or terminating in the US is more general in that it requires the same baggage allowance for the entire journey regardless of stopovers:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...-adoption.html
http://www.bluestartours.com/airline...april-01-2011/

What is interesting that both links say the ticket should mention a baggage allowance so perhaps the SN agents were right and UA issued an incomplete ticket without stating the baggage allowance. This is going to be such a pain to resolve.

hilmar

So, I used United miles to book business class on LH. Which set of bagage rules apply? (they both claim theirs if you call them...).

Thanks!

kiam

Operating carrier's policies supercede.

jdtravel

You need to look at the operating carriers rules. You may be on a UA flight number but it maybe operated by LH, or vice versa.

3Cforme

If you booked on or after January 24th, your United ticket confirmation will show the baggage allowance if you have a U.S. origin, destination, or connecting point, and your baggage allowance will be consistent throughout.

MrOCTeckels

As noted above, you get the LH bag allowance (2 bags in business class). Note that *A Gold gets an additional bag in each class. Current rules here