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-   -   Local lockdowns in the UK (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-ireland/2025295-local-lockdowns-uk.html)

antichef Dec 26, 2020 10:14 am


Originally Posted by matinicus rock (Post 32914133)
And here we are thinking Southern California has become the pariah of the world. Well, as long as two pariahs are allowed to coexist in any way, I'll be able to hold onto an essential trip to the UK for a couple of weeks on January 28. I must say I'm a bit nervous as tings will only get worse in the weeks ahead after the the CCC (Christmas Covid Count) kicks in.

There are a number of warnings you might need with that plan. The first big warning is that anything and everything can change in the next month! I agree that the xmas break is bound to be followed by the January heartbreak.

You say you are visiting the UK, but you need to be aware that the four nations of the UK each have different rules and levels of restrictions, and even travel between the four nations now requires you to self isolate in most circumstances. The guidance I have linked below will take you to each nation's rules.

Your next point is that although your trip may be an "essential trip" you might be hindered if it is only for a couple of weeks and you have no exemption from isolation. Even though your trip might be essential, you will still usually be required to self isolate for 10 days before you can go about your business in most cases (assuming you are coming from LAX). There are a limited number of people who are not currently required to self-isolate - but even that might change in the current climate with new variants at large. See here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...k-border-rules

ETA: You will also need to factor in the possible restrictions on returning home - which might also tighten up in the next month!!

ahmetdouas Dec 26, 2020 11:53 am


Originally Posted by antichef (Post 32914283)
There are a number of warnings you might need with that plan. The first big warning is that anything and everything can change in the next month! I agree that the xmas break is bound to be followed by the January heartbreak.

You say you are visiting the UK, but you need to be aware that the four nations of the UK each have different rules and levels of restrictions, and even travel between the four nations now requires you to self isolate in most circumstances. The guidance I have linked below will take you to each nation's rules.

Your next point is that although your trip may be an "essential trip" you might be hindered if it is only for a couple of weeks and you have no exemption from isolation. Even though your trip might be essential, you will still usually be required to self isolate for 10 days before you can go about your business in most cases (assuming you are coming from LAX). There are a limited number of people who are not currently required to self-isolate - but even that might change in the current climate with new variants at large. See here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...k-border-rules

reduced to five if getting tested or zero if you come for ‘important business’

antichef Dec 26, 2020 12:00 pm


Originally Posted by ahmetdouas (Post 32914527)
reduced to five if getting tested or zero if you come for ‘important business’

All of that and "how to do it" are contained in the link that I posted.

matinicus rock Dec 27, 2020 10:43 am


Originally Posted by antichef (Post 32914547)
All of that and "how to do it" are contained in the link that I posted.

yes - thanks to both of you for this. We are taking advantage of the five day test-to-release program and have padded ourselves on the back end to account for possible delays in getting test results back or God forbid inconclusive results. A week’s cottage rental in the Cotswolds for self isolation with grocery delivery. Trying to make the most of it!

pandaloverx Dec 27, 2020 11:29 am

Does anyone know if travelling to spend time with my spouse is allowed under essential travel? It’s very confusing, been looking at the government site and spouses etc abroad are not listed there just the normal business traveller etc. I just don’t want to get in trouble at the airport and I’ve tried calling my airline, FCDO, airport itself and they said it’s gov rules and not anything to do with them and they just don’t know.

im exempt under the USA rules (spouses are allowed in, just up to discretion of the CBP officer at the airport itself) and I’d be taking a test before departure as this is now a requirement. Just wondered if any of you had been in this situation and knew if this would be okay.

NWIFlyer Dec 27, 2020 11:46 am


Originally Posted by pandaloverx (Post 32916761)
Does anyone know if travelling to spend time with my spouse is allowed under essential travel? It’s very confusing, been looking at the government site and spouses etc abroad are not listed there just the normal business traveller etc. I just don’t want to get in trouble at the airport and I’ve tried calling my airline, FCDO, airport itself and they said it’s gov rules and not anything to do with them and they just don’t know.

im exempt under the USA rules (spouses are allowed in, just up to discretion of the CBP officer at the airport itself) and I’d be taking a test before departure as this is now a requirement. Just wondered if any of you had been in this situation and knew if this would be okay.

I assume you’re under Tier 4 restrictions. I’m afraid there are very few exemptions that allow you to leave your home, and visiting family/friends isn’t one of them unless they are either (a) in your bubble, in which case it gets very complicated if that bubble is outside the country, or (b) they are vulnerable and you are caring for them.

If you could fall under the bubble scenario you’d need to give fairly specific details, but in basic terms the country your spouse is in must also operate a bubble scheme, and you would also need to observe your own tier rules (or the local ones if more restrictive) when visiting. You would also need to self-isolate on return if not arriving from a travel corridor country.

ahmetdouas Dec 27, 2020 1:11 pm


Originally Posted by pandaloverx (Post 32916761)
Does anyone know if travelling to spend time with my spouse is allowed under essential travel? It’s very confusing, been looking at the government site and spouses etc abroad are not listed there just the normal business traveller etc. I just don’t want to get in trouble at the airport and I’ve tried calling my airline, FCDO, airport itself and they said it’s gov rules and not anything to do with them and they just don’t know.

im exempt under the USA rules (spouses are allowed in, just up to discretion of the CBP officer at the airport itself) and I’d be taking a test before departure as this is now a requirement. Just wondered if any of you had been in this situation and knew if this would be okay.

i wouldn’t worry about it. You are married so logically you are one household

13901 Dec 28, 2020 12:28 am

One positive upside of this Tier 4 is that South Bank was empty-ish yesterday. Met with a friend there and crowds only began to form in the second part of the afternoon; at 10 it was only us.

ahmetdouas Dec 28, 2020 12:32 am


Originally Posted by 13901 (Post 32918014)
One positive upside of this Tier 4 is that South Bank was empty-ish yesterday. Met with a friend there and crowds only began to form in the second part of the afternoon; at 10 it was only us.

It’s also Xmas quietness many ppl are out of town I see many streets without cars parked outside their houses which means they aren’t there. Many people evacuated London on the day of ‘that’ announcement or the days immediately after I still saw ppl on the streets with their suitcases.

my ‘take away wine bar’ is open again but emptier than last November lockdown, I don’t expect too many ppl showing up until after new year.

NWIFlyer Dec 28, 2020 1:09 am


Originally Posted by ahmetdouas (Post 32916973)
i wouldn’t worry about it. You are married so logically you are one household

Is this a best guess, or the law? A household is one or a group of people living at the same address - it has nothing to do with marriage. That’s the legal and government definition - see the ONS part of gov.uk.

Judging by the steps taken so far, [MENTION=908136]pandaloverx[/MENTION] wants to be as certain as possible that he or she is operating within the law - the due diligence undertaken surely shows that. I’m really not sure that guesses not based on the law are going to actually help reconcile that.

This is what the relevant parts of the Statutory Instrument say:


Originally Posted by Tier 4 SI
Restrictions on leaving home

1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where
they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—
(a) the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;
(b) the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

Exceptions: leaving home
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(g) to visit a member of a household which is a linked household in relation to P’s household;

Now of course these are the “guaranteed” circumstances where the law is clear. It’s not exhaustive, hence why I imagine airlines have not been keen to commit. It can actually only take a court to decide if any actions outside the defined exemptions would be considered reasonable.

If I were in that position, and for whatever reason I or my spouse was already in a linked household, the questions I’d be asking would be:
Is it some considerable time since I saw my spouse? A week makes for a very much weaker case than six months.
Will my relationship or mental health be adversely affected if I don’t visit?
Does my spouse need some degree of support?

The more favourable answers you can give to the questions you come up with, the more likely your actions are likely to be seen as reasonable and therefore within the law.

ahmetdouas Dec 28, 2020 1:20 am


Originally Posted by NWIFlyer (Post 32918059)
Is this a best guess, or the law? A household is one or a group of people living at the same address - it has nothing to do with marriage. That’s the legal and government definition - see the ONS part of gov.uk.

Judging by the steps taken so far, [MENTION=908136]pandaloverx[/MENTION] wants to be as certain as possible that he or she is operating within the law - the due diligence undertaken surely shows that. I’m really not sure that guesses not based on the law are going to actually help reconcile that.

This is what the relevant parts of the Statutory Instrument say:



Now of course these are the “guaranteed” circumstances where the law is clear. It’s not exhaustive, hence why I imagine airlines have not been keen to commit. It can actually only take a court to decide if any actions outside the defined exemptions would be considered reasonable.

If I were in that position, and for whatever reason I or my spouse was already in a linked household, the questions I’d be asking would be:
Is it some considerable time since I saw my spouse? A week makes for a very much weaker case than six months.
Will my relationship or mental health be adversely affected if I don’t visit?
Does my spouse need some degree of support?

The more favourable answers you can give to the questions you come up with, the more likely your actions are likely to be seen as reasonable and therefore within the law.

Airlines have nothing to do with this, it’s up to the individual to make their own decisions based on their interpretation of the law. All they care about is if the person they are carrying is legally admissible into the country they are travelling to.

Many of the laws regarding lockdown are quite vague which allows a lot of discretion of interpretation for the individual concerned, unless there is a clear breach (e.g. hosting a 100 person party at your house), the example given about visiting a spouse is not a breach of lockdown regulations and even if you think it is (which I don’t) it’s not easy to prove.

it would be very hard to for the authorities to say that a married couple are from not the same household unless you directly implicate yourself (e.g. you say you don’t like your wife right now so insist on living away from her!). If you are ‘returning home’ to go see your wife well then that sounds quite ‘reasonable’ to me. Remember in many aspects of the law a married couple is considered one person! Hence why the person is admissible to the USA in the first place regardless of Covid bans!


It’s a big shame all these rules have caused ordinary people doing ordinary things like returning home to a spouse to be afraid of
doing so.

Does any ‘reasonable’ person think that the police (assuming they even stop you which is a low chance in the first place, as I have said I have been out everyday since March and have not been stopped or questioned once, even after having friendly chats with many officers) is going to stop a person and then question them when they say they are returning home to their wife and try and fine them for doing so in the UK?

you make it sound like visiting ones spouse will be an interrogation with the police, and acting like it’s a criminal offence to do so!

the media would have a field day out of that one that’s for sure.

there are so many ‘exemptions’ for one going to
see their wife it’s not even funny.

pandaloverx Dec 28, 2020 4:59 am

Thank you guys it’s Scotland I’m in and we all just moved from tier 1 to 4 a couple days ago. It’s so confusing. I don’t wanna get in trouble because I’m scared that’ll affect me getting a visa later on (well hopefully it wouldn’t!) but the US proclamation clearly states a spouse is allowed entry but it’s getting from Scotland to England and then leaving the country. No one seems to know anything when I call them...

ahmetdouas Dec 28, 2020 6:09 am


Originally Posted by pandaloverx (Post 32918295)
Thank you guys it’s Scotland I’m in and we all just moved from tier 1 to 4 a couple days ago. It’s so confusing. I don’t wanna get in trouble because I’m scared that’ll affect me getting a visa later on (well hopefully it wouldn’t!) but the US proclamation clearly states a spouse is allowed entry but it’s getting from Scotland to England and then leaving the country. No one seems to know anything when I call them...

if the us allows you in then what’s the problem. Just carry proof you are married to your wife and a proof of the address she lives in if it makes you feel better.

13901 Dec 28, 2020 7:21 am

Admittedly it's only the trashiest rags that are peddling it (Express, Sun) but it might seem that London could level up to Tier 5 (out of 3?) soon with harshest measures than back in April.

antichef Dec 28, 2020 7:24 am


Originally Posted by ahmetdouas (Post 32916973)
i wouldn’t worry about it. You are married so logically you are one household

I think you are starting from the wrong end of the problem here, and jumping to conclusions!

The questioner may well be married, but has not given any details of where they are or where their spouse is, and this might be very relevant because they could be in one of four nations each of which have different rules.

The spouse may not even be residing in their "principal place of residence", which again alters the advice that would need to be given. For example, the spouse may only be temporarily resident in a hotel somewhere in the UK for a few weeks for work purposes. If the questioner then travelled to join them, that would not be essential and could breach any number of different rules.

So there is no "logically" about it as they appear on the information provided to be two households in different countries, any in the absence of the necessary information it is not possible to give accurate advice - which is what the questioner is seeking. And they are worried about doing the right thing - which is why they are asking!


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