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HB7 Mar 17, 2021 5:00 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106546)
Phase I was for 32 million maximum, so Phase II is "only" 21 million, so somewhat lower than your figure. We haven't done 4 million in a week yet, and it would probably only be for a few weeks at that speed, but your maths are probably about right, bearing in mind that there may be a bit of a slowdown over the Easter weekend. There are also the 2nd vaccinations, of course. By end of May seems possible at this point in time.

Ah yes good point. Thanks for that. If all adults are done by May, that's huge.

KSVVZ2015 Mar 17, 2021 6:47 am

Paging CWS - thoughts on how Ursula's threats (and admittedly they are just that) regarding blocking exports to the UK and other countries with high vaccinations rates will play into the picture going forward? I know even your knowledge on supply has its limits but would love any thoughts.

Dan1113 Mar 17, 2021 6:47 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106518)
Over 40s are now being offered jabs in some places, and that will probably be extended to everyone online fairly soon. There are 5 million in group 9, the last of Phase I, so that could be processed in the next week or so, if all goes well.

Nicola Sturgeon is still saying, just a few minutes ago, that priority groups will be done by mid April. While would she still be saying this if it looks like this will be beaten quite far ahead of schedule?

Dan1113 Mar 17, 2021 6:49 am

This is the current status in Scotland.


Practically everyone over 65 has been vaccinated and by today 67% of people between 60 and 64; 42% between 55 and 59 and 34% between 50 and 54 have had their first jab.
I guess this does not help though.


cauchy Mar 17, 2021 6:58 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33103845)
"Herd immunity" - which as I say is best left to sheep and cattle - is not an on-off concept, the more you vaccinate, the sooner you vaccinate, the bigger the impact. In a sense even today's 46.1% adult vaccination level gives some herd immunity, just too low to really have much impact, particularly since today's 3 week figure is only 33.8%. Even 99% vaccine cover could theoretically lead to some deaths, just (hopefully) very few and well spread out. Hence when we get to 80%, and have left it 3 weeks, we get some good impacts, I think that R greater than 1 become statistically very difficult for example. But to be sure to get the death toll under (say) 10 per day - and to give a margin for things like Variants - you need to get 90% ish. I seem to recall the DHSC were hoping to get 80% to 85% take-up, and are delighted it is so much higher, at least at this point.

It's not really spoken about much, but perhaps there's a subtle distinction between infection-acquired herd immunity and mass vaccination-acquired herd immunity:

Because not everyone's at equal risk of contracting and then spreading Covid, I've seen people argue that herd immunity caused by infection can be achieved after ~43% of the population has been infected (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6505/846). Broadly it seems that the virus starts off infecting people with lots of social contact (as they're at high risk), leading to a very big spike in cases (as they' spread it), but once these individuals have become immune, many routes-of-transmission are closed off and cases drop faster than would be expected.

The difference with vaccination-driven immunity seems to be that you're doing everyone, from the person who gets Ocado and has minutes of social contact every week (when passing strangers on a daily walk), to the transport workers with 40 hours of human contact every week, and so you'll need a lot more than ~43% coverage to ensure protection.

There are variations on vaccine policy, for example, with Ebola they're using a ring-vaccination policy - so contacts and 2nd-degree contacts (i.e. contacts of contacts) are offered the vaccine. (I suppose they could improve Track and Trace performance if they trialled this...)

Dan1113 Mar 17, 2021 6:58 am

On international travel...


The chief medical officer jumps in on the issue of international travel.

Dr Gregor Smith says that he has been looking at data across Europe and many countries are experiencing exponential growth in infections.

He says this is because they are being exposed to three new variants, with the B117 variant - seen here since before Christmas - is now seeded across Europe.

Some other countries are also seeing the South African and Brazilian variants growing and it worries him that these may establish themselves in continental Europe as a potential source of problems.

Dr Smith says they are monitoring the situation closely and taking all the safety measures they can to try to limit the introduction of those variants into Scotland.

He says that continuing vaccination of the population will let them judge what normality will look like for society in the summer.

BBC Scotland's Catriona Renton asks the first minister if people will be able to stop wearing masks in the summer and if there will be mass gatherings indoors.

She also asks if Ms Sturgeon will provide a framework for the aviation industry.

The first minister says she will be talking to the aviation sector over the course of this week about when and to what extent some international might be possible.

She adds she doesn't think it will be possible before 17 May and it might not be possible for a period after that.

The first minister says the picture is "not as rosy" in other parts of the world and in some parts of Europe.

Ms Sturgeon also says she is working hard to get a four-nations approaches to travel.

But she adds that if she thinks decisions made by the UK government don't go far enough, then she will do what she thinks is best for Scotland.

corporate-wage-slave Mar 17, 2021 7:17 am


Originally Posted by KSVVZ2015 (Post 33106692)
Paging CWS - thoughts on how Ursula's threats (and admittedly they are just that) regarding blocking exports to the UK and other countries with high vaccinations rates will play into the picture going forward? I know even your knowledge on supply has its limits but would love any thoughts.

I'm just exasperated by this. Right now the biggest priority is Italy and maybe France in terms of sheer numbers of avoidable deaths. Jabs in arms today. At the moment, the EU has a stockpile of unused vaccines, which varies from country to country, but if the EU were really taking this issue seriously, the entire focus would be on getting every drop of vaccine into an arm immediately. it really isn't complicated. There are 1,000 Europeans going to die in the next 24 hours in Europe and this will continue until there is a single focus on vaccines, plus lockdowns in the worst places. So complaining that the UK AZ factories haven't sent many vaccines to the EU is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, when AZ is being blocked from use (admittedly not by the EU's EMA), and you have a stock of unused vaccines. Let's say the UK had a million vaccines lying around right now, what is the quickest way to get them all into an arm? Send them to Paris? Or send them to Birmingham?

It's often forgotten that the President of the Commission is a public health academic, by background.

13901 Mar 17, 2021 7:32 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106732)
I'm just exasperated by this. Right now the biggest priority is Italy and maybe France in terms of sheer numbers of avoidable deaths. Jabs in arms today. At the moment, the EU has a stockpile of unused vaccines, which varies from country to country, but if the EU were really taking this issue seriously, the entire focus would be on getting every drop of vaccine into an arm immediately. it really isn't complicated. There are 1,000 Europeans going to die in the next 24 hours in Europe and this will continue until there is a single focus on vaccines, plus lockdowns in the worst places. So complaining that the UK AZ factories haven't sent many vaccines to the EU is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, when AZ is being blocked from use (admittedly not by the EU's EMA), and you have a stock of unused vaccines. Let's say the UK had a million vaccines lying around right now, what is the quickest way to get them all into an arm? Send them to Paris? Or send them to Birmingham?

It's often forgotten that the President of the Commission is a public health academic, by background.

I'm not too sure about France, but in Italy's case the "stockpile of unused vaccines" as of this morning was 1.557m doses, and the per-day jab average is between 150 and 180k, which the Civil Protection and army say they can't really increase as they don't have a lot of faith in deliveries going forward. They had a period in early Feb where they effectively ran out and there's very little faith in companies sticking to the timescales, or so tells me my sister-in-law who is a doctor (and a jabber, though I wouldn't want to call her Italy's C-W-S, her knowledge of miles and points is quite low). Right now they've used >80% of the stock they'd been given. The data doesn't quite say how many vaccines are in stock per type but, if we assume that they're using vaccines proportionally to how much they've been given of each kind, that 1.6m doses would be divided as follows: 1.1m Pfizer, 90k Moderna, 410k AZ (which is suspended until the EMA releases the verdict on Thursday).

Another thing to bear in mind is this: based on contracts, authorities expected the following number of doses by end of March (between brackets what they've actually got as of now): Pfizer 11.1m (5.9m); AstraZeneca 5.3m (2.2m); Moderna 1.3m (0.5m).

corporate-wage-slave Mar 17, 2021 7:35 am


Originally Posted by 13901 (Post 33106753)
I'm not too sure about France, but in Italy's case the "stockpile of unused vaccines" as of this morning was 1.557m doses, ).

At the risk of going close to the wire here, that is slightly higher than the UK's stockpile, at least in terms of the delivery system.

KSVVZ2015 Mar 17, 2021 7:42 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106732)
I'm just exasperated by this. Right now the biggest priority is Italy and maybe France in terms of sheer numbers of avoidable deaths. Jabs in arms today. At the moment, the EU has a stockpile of unused vaccines, which varies from country to country, but if the EU were really taking this issue seriously, the entire focus would be on getting every drop of vaccine into an arm immediately. it really isn't complicated. There are 1,000 Europeans going to die in the next 24 hours in Europe and this will continue until there is a single focus on vaccines, plus lockdowns in the worst places. So complaining that the UK AZ factories haven't sent many vaccines to the EU is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, when AZ is being blocked from use (admittedly not by the EU's EMA), and you have a stock of unused vaccines. Let's say the UK had a million vaccines lying around right now, what is the quickest way to get them all into an arm? Send them to Paris? Or send them to Birmingham?

It's often forgotten that the President of the Commission is a public health academic, by background.

I actually didn’t know that about her. So that’s my new fact for the day.

I fully agree with you (from my non-health chair). It’s politically motivated but their bungling of the entire vaccine process (starting from trying to hammer on price rather than placing orders) is utterly baffling for a group of countries that likes to think of itself as the pinnacle of the world.

13901 Mar 17, 2021 7:43 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106763)
At the risk of going close to the wire here, that is slightly higher than the UK's stockpile, at least in terms of the delivery system.

What do you mean, in terms of delivery system? That number was for the entirety of vaccines shipped to the Italian equivalent of NHS.

corporate-wage-slave Mar 17, 2021 7:49 am


Originally Posted by 13901 (Post 33106777)
What do you mean, in terms of delivery system? That number was for the entirety of vaccines shipped to the Italian equivalent of NHS.

The UK is doing just in time, Italy isn't, hence Italy has stockpiled, the UK not so much. There is more stock awaiting batch accreditation in factories in the UK and multiple places in Europe, but that can't be used until the batch is signed off. Because mainland Europe is still sticking to the 3 week timeframe, they have boxed themselves in, they are only using half their deliveries since jab2 is so close to hand. It's a bit of a mess, and the Commission's President will understand this more than most.

Silver Fox Mar 17, 2021 8:03 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106794)
The UK is doing just in time, Italy isn't, hence Italy has stockpiled, the UK not so much. There is more stock awaiting batch accreditation in factories in the UK and multiple places in Europe, but that can't be used until the batch is signed off. Because mainland Europe is still sticking to the 3 week timeframe, they have boxed themselves in, they are only using half their deliveries since jab2 is so close to hand. It's a bit of a mess, and the Commission's President will understand this more than most.

Didn't we just get 10m doses from India, and aren't all our vaccine plants expected to be online by April?

13901 Mar 17, 2021 8:03 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 33106794)
The UK is doing just in time, Italy isn't, hence Italy has stockpiled, the UK not so much. There is more stock awaiting batch accreditation in factories in the UK and multiple places in Europe, but that can't be used until the batch is signed off. Because mainland Europe is still sticking to the 3 week timeframe, they have boxed themselves in, they are only using half their deliveries since jab2 is so close to hand. It's a bit of a mess, and the Commission's President will understand this more than most.

You can't do just in time if there's no trust in the forecasted supply. My SIL works in a hospital in the North-West, Piedmont region. They've started vaccinating in January and they haven't had a single delivery go as planned. Instead of, say, 10 doses they receive 4, or 3, or sometimes nothing at all. Layer it all with bureaucracy and you have a recipe for disaster: they plan conservatively and sometimes end up with surplus, which is of course not good. So far they've given it to healthcare workers, frontline workers and so forth but right now they've compiled "standby" lists although it's not without wrinkles...

corporate-wage-slave Mar 17, 2021 8:34 am


Originally Posted by 13901 (Post 33106828)
You can't do just in time if there's no trust in the forecasted supply. My SIL works in a hospital in the North-West, Piedmont region. They've started vaccinating in January and they haven't had a single delivery go as planned. Instead of, say, 10 doses they receive 4, or 3, or sometimes nothing at all. Layer it all with bureaucracy and you have a recipe for disaster: they plan conservatively and sometimes end up with surplus, which is of course not good. So far they've given it to healthcare workers, frontline workers and so forth but right now they've compiled "standby" lists although it's not without wrinkles...

The UK and Italy and everywhere else is the same boat, we have quite similar issues here in terms of planning and we end up ringing in taxi drivers and car showroom staff to use up the surpluses. We even stopped a passing bus on one evening, and no-one declined. There isn't enough supply. anywhere in Europe. What differs is emphasis and approach. Right now the UK has 24,839,906 examples of focusing on what matters - and you know what, I do not think that is good enough. Time is of the essence, we can spend all day making excuses and deflecting, or we can spend every minute trying to get the next injection into someone. So in a sense there is no point having a squabble about this, if that is what the President is trying to do, she would be better employed doing whatever it takes to get AZ vaccines out of refrigerated warehouses in Rungis and into Europe's citizens.


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