Turkish Airlines General Rant Thread
Jan 31, 2012, 12:43 pm
#76
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The OP perhaps only flew TK that one time (a safe assumption looking at that flightmemory map), and since F was discontinued long before the new lounge opened, its possible the OP did not visit it @:-)
Jan 31, 2012, 1:48 pm
#77
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And IIRC, the 777s generally featured some 9W cabin crew - at least in the TR's Ive read. I know 9W crew definitely speak english, and I imagine they would be keeping an eye on F service, seeing as they were far more familiar with the seat etc there than TK crew.
Jan 31, 2012, 3:01 pm
#78
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Funny to read the whole thread.
IST and as a matter of fact the whole region have had a lot of snow and extreme cold weather in the past few days. Delays should happen and will continue for a while regardless of Turkish's hard and soft products.
Personally, I would rather be late on the ground than departing too early without proper de-icing :>
IST and as a matter of fact the whole region have had a lot of snow and extreme cold weather in the past few days. Delays should happen and will continue for a while regardless of Turkish's hard and soft products.
Personally, I would rather be late on the ground than departing too early without proper de-icing :>
Jan 31, 2012, 3:30 pm
#79
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Jan 31, 2012, 4:52 pm
#80
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I was so impressed with the Istanbul lounge that I snapped a few pix. I would've taken more but I didn't want to look like a total rube.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbjello...245823/detail/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbjello...245823/detail/
Jan 31, 2012, 5:49 pm
#81
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This so-called 'trade off' between safety and service does not exist. The entire assumption is based on a false zero-sum game. High service and high safety standards are not mutually exclusive. Nor does a high amount of one necessarily mean a reduction in the amount of other. 'Safe' airlines don't always, by nature, offer a poor service product. And airlines with high quality service are not automatically, by nature, unsafe. That these assumptions allow you to cast your own preference (presumably a safe airline with poor service) in a positive light does not mean that they are valid.
That said, things can sometimes go wrong. Most serious air incidents involve more than one variable. In many cases, all of those variables have to align together at the same time, to cause the worst case scenario. To try and pin it all down on lax safety culture is a bit... unwarranted. Its also demeaning to the victims - the way you try to use it to score cheap brownie points.
Is TK unsafe? Are their planes falling out of the sky? No. They had one fatal incident recently that also involved faulty equipment - radio altimeter IIRC. It wasn't purely pilot error - and there's no reason to believe that all 'safe' airlines' pilots would have handled the situation better). Do they fly a lot of planes on a daily basis that get their passengers to their destinations? Yes. Ditto Air France. And SQ. Now if TK 737s or AF 330s were falling out of the sky on a regular basis, I would agree wholeheartedly with you, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't.
Is TK unsafe? Are their planes falling out of the sky? No. They had one fatal incident recently that also involved faulty equipment - radio altimeter IIRC. It wasn't purely pilot error - and there's no reason to believe that all 'safe' airlines' pilots would have handled the situation better). Do they fly a lot of planes on a daily basis that get their passengers to their destinations? Yes. Ditto Air France. And SQ. Now if TK 737s or AF 330s were falling out of the sky on a regular basis, I would agree wholeheartedly with you, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't.
Thanks for bringing up the issue of safety culture.
AF has a pretty lousy record. How many airframes did they lose in the last ten years? They were very lucky that only two of them involved significant loss of life.
As to TK, the scary part is that there was a check pilot on board. Who let the plane stall.
Yes there was an altimeter failure, yes the 737 system was poorly designed. But these are precisely the type of stuff that fails. Precisely why one needs pilots. And they had three. Including a very senior guy who was supposed to be making sure the other guys were doing things right. That he did not catch that they were stalled does not send you a good message.
The Danish article which I posted earlier *precisely questions* their safety culture.
Three accidents: AF, TK, Colgan. Three good planes that the crew let stall.
Jan 31, 2012, 6:35 pm
#82
Join Date: Mar 2008
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The OP says that they "Will Never Fly Turkish Airlines Again" and advises other not to book with them too.
Maybe TK would like to issue the same statement about the OP.
Istanbul has received 50cm of snow in the last few days. IST handles snow about as well as YVR and the OP wants instant, accurate, estimations of when they will leave?
Maybe TK would like to issue the same statement about the OP.
Istanbul has received 50cm of snow in the last few days. IST handles snow about as well as YVR and the OP wants instant, accurate, estimations of when they will leave?
30 January 2012 / TODAY'S ZAMAN, İSTANBUL
Snow continued to fall unabated throughout İstanbul on Monday, draping the bustling city in a blanket of white.
The snowfall, which began early Monday morning and increased throughout the day, proved to be both problematic and delightful in a city where heavy snowfall is not typical.
The districts of Arnavutköy, Sarıyer, Sancaktepe and Çamlıca received 10 centimeters of snow and villages like Riva and Beykoz experienced 20 centimeters.
For those trying to get to work or travel outside of the city, the snowstorm has proved inconvenient.
Turkish Airlines (THY) had to cancel or delay many of its flights out of İstanbul on Monday due to the heavy snowfall. Across Turkey, a total of 184 flights were canceled.
Some thirty international flights and 15 domestic flights were canceled on Monday morning after the snow caused problems on the runway.
State Airports Management General Directorate (DHMİ) officials said work to clear the runways and ramps continues because of the ongoing snowfall.
Some ferry services were also canceled on Monday due to the unexpected snowfall.
İstanbul Municipality's Disaster Coordination Center (AKOM) declared a red alert for the blustery winter weather that hit İstanbul on Monday. The center had issued a yellow alert for the municipality before an unexpected deluge of snow struck in the morning.
AKOM deployed 2,406 personnel and 870 vehicles to nine regions of İstanbul to deal with Monday's heavy snowstorm.
İstanbul's Road Maintenance and Repair Directorate spent the entire morning salting the streets. A total of 18,932 tons of salt and 442 tons of solution have been laid on the streets since the snow started falling last Thursday.
The municipality continues to operate a homeless shelter at Metin Oktay Gym in Yeniköy. As of Monday, a total of 368 people had taken refuge in the gym.
Others, however, reveled in the bustling city's transformation into a winter wonderland.
Historic sites like the Blue and Süleymaniye Mosques and tourist-laden Taksim Square were veiled in white on Monday, with tourists and locals alike posing with their families and friends outside the Örtaköy Mosque and on İstiklal Street in the midst of the flurries.
İstanbul's beaches were also covered in a blanket of snow.
The beach in Zeytinburnu, which is usually dotted with grills for barbeques and picnics, became the perfect setting for snowball fights
Snow continued to fall unabated throughout İstanbul on Monday, draping the bustling city in a blanket of white.
The snowfall, which began early Monday morning and increased throughout the day, proved to be both problematic and delightful in a city where heavy snowfall is not typical.
The districts of Arnavutköy, Sarıyer, Sancaktepe and Çamlıca received 10 centimeters of snow and villages like Riva and Beykoz experienced 20 centimeters.
For those trying to get to work or travel outside of the city, the snowstorm has proved inconvenient.
Turkish Airlines (THY) had to cancel or delay many of its flights out of İstanbul on Monday due to the heavy snowfall. Across Turkey, a total of 184 flights were canceled.
Some thirty international flights and 15 domestic flights were canceled on Monday morning after the snow caused problems on the runway.
State Airports Management General Directorate (DHMİ) officials said work to clear the runways and ramps continues because of the ongoing snowfall.
Some ferry services were also canceled on Monday due to the unexpected snowfall.
İstanbul Municipality's Disaster Coordination Center (AKOM) declared a red alert for the blustery winter weather that hit İstanbul on Monday. The center had issued a yellow alert for the municipality before an unexpected deluge of snow struck in the morning.
AKOM deployed 2,406 personnel and 870 vehicles to nine regions of İstanbul to deal with Monday's heavy snowstorm.
İstanbul's Road Maintenance and Repair Directorate spent the entire morning salting the streets. A total of 18,932 tons of salt and 442 tons of solution have been laid on the streets since the snow started falling last Thursday.
The municipality continues to operate a homeless shelter at Metin Oktay Gym in Yeniköy. As of Monday, a total of 368 people had taken refuge in the gym.
Others, however, reveled in the bustling city's transformation into a winter wonderland.
Historic sites like the Blue and Süleymaniye Mosques and tourist-laden Taksim Square were veiled in white on Monday, with tourists and locals alike posing with their families and friends outside the Örtaköy Mosque and on İstiklal Street in the midst of the flurries.
İstanbul's beaches were also covered in a blanket of snow.
The beach in Zeytinburnu, which is usually dotted with grills for barbeques and picnics, became the perfect setting for snowball fights
Jan 31, 2012, 6:44 pm
#83
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On a positive note - the TK Catering DO-CO is excellent, even in economy.
I missed the new lounge the last time I was through - by the reports it sounds excellent!
I missed the new lounge the last time I was through - by the reports it sounds excellent!
Jan 31, 2012, 7:15 pm
#84
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
I did not say it is a zero sum game. I was trying to say that one needs to look at the whole picture, including both.
Thanks for bringing up the issue of safety culture.
AF has a pretty lousy record. How many airframes did they lose in the last ten years? They were very lucky that only two of them involved significant loss of life.
As to TK, the scary part is that there was a check pilot on board. Who let the plane stall.
Yes there was an altimeter failure, yes the 737 system was poorly designed. But these are precisely the type of stuff that fails. Precisely why one needs pilots. And they had three. Including a very senior guy who was supposed to be making sure the other guys were doing things right. That he did not catch that they were stalled does not send you a good message.
The Danish article which I posted earlier *precisely questions* their safety culture.
Three accidents: AF, TK, Colgan. Three good planes that the crew let stall.
Thanks for bringing up the issue of safety culture.
AF has a pretty lousy record. How many airframes did they lose in the last ten years? They were very lucky that only two of them involved significant loss of life.
As to TK, the scary part is that there was a check pilot on board. Who let the plane stall.
Yes there was an altimeter failure, yes the 737 system was poorly designed. But these are precisely the type of stuff that fails. Precisely why one needs pilots. And they had three. Including a very senior guy who was supposed to be making sure the other guys were doing things right. That he did not catch that they were stalled does not send you a good message.
The Danish article which I posted earlier *precisely questions* their safety culture.
Three accidents: AF, TK, Colgan. Three good planes that the crew let stall.
But that aside, the utter lack of logic in your posts renders this exchange sort of meaningless. For example, one of those AF airframes was lost because a chunk of metal fell of a CO plane (hardly known for their stellar service). AF and the Concorde pilot were quite blameless in that particular, but don't let that stop you from pissing on his grave just because you want to prove that your airline is safer. Cheap meaningless points scored at the expense of the dignity of the victims.
If we continue to go down this line, then all airlines are unsafe except, of course, your preferred airline, which is the only safe one. I m not denying that pilot error exists - it does - but faulty equipment can increase the extent of the error with very significant consequences. Under normal circumstances, if that equipment hadn't been faulty, those pilots' errors probably wouldn't have occurred.
Besides, you're also effectively shedding a negative light on whichever airline you're trying to prop up. Not too put too much of a fine point on it, but if an A330 pilot can't steer a fully laden aircraft at a relatively low speed on a taxiway at his hub airport without taking it off the taxiway, how can you trust him to fly the plane safely? It was just bad decision-making, but fortunately it happened on the ground in a low risk environment.
My suggestion to you: Don't fly. By your own criteria, no airline is safe. All of them carry some risk of pilot error.
Jan 31, 2012, 7:24 pm
#85
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In all three cases the key factor was that pilots forgot the most basic skill in how to fly a plane. Not simply a case of dealing with "some risk of pilot error." But rather serious incompetence. I expect pilots to know they should not let the plane stall.
Jan 31, 2012, 8:01 pm
#86
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
No plane is perfect. None of these flaws in the three stall cases were major. All issues that are to be anticipated occasionally.
In all three cases the key factor was that pilots forgot the most basic skill in how to fly a plane. Not simply a case of dealing with "some risk of pilot error." But rather serious incompetence. I expect pilots to know they should not let the plane stall.
In all three cases the key factor was that pilots forgot the most basic skill in how to fly a plane. Not simply a case of dealing with "some risk of pilot error." But rather serious incompetence. I expect pilots to know they should not let the plane stall.
But aside from that, answer me this simple question:
If an A330 pilot, just starting a flight (you can rule out fatigue as a factor) takes his aircraft of the taxiway at a relatively low speed at his hub airport (you can rule out unfamiliarity with the situation) in normal weather conditions (you can rule out weather anomalies), does that amount to serious incompetence?
You'll notice that those three variables were involved in the three cases you mentioned. None of them were involved in the example above. Does that reflect poorly on the safety record of the airline that operated the A330. I mean, if you can't even get the plane on to the runway...what does that say about competence?
In mine, it says that the pilot made a mistake, but fortunately it didn't take place in an environment that exacerbated the risk. I suspect in yours it means the airline has a poor safety record and seriously incompetent pilots.
Feb 1, 2012, 4:47 am
#87
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Guys guys guys! Sorry, haven't read all the responses but when I posted this I was not expecting this thread to become this long.
So finally reached Sydney and quickly checking this (I am addicted!). Couple points:
- I was not complaining that the flight was delayed. I understand that delays happen. But when passengers are dealing with a 4+ hours of delay, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect information and not to be spoken to rudely when asking for such info (especially after you continue to receive conflicting information). In my 7+ years of flying, I had not experienced this, but perhaps I have just been lucky.
- There are a quite a few things I did not mention but will briefly highlight
- One does not expect J class dinner service to last for 4 hours into a 9 hours flight. Again, service was great but poorly organized.
- My wife has an allergy. I had placed the request with AC and TK and confirmed on a few occasions. TK had the special meal for the first flight (YYZ to IST, but not on the second. The cabin crew, instead of coming up with a solution, simply said, "Sorry, but I can't do anything - it's the ground staff's mistake." Her allergy is something the cabin crew could have dealt with even if the special meal was inadvertently forgotten.
Again, when I am travelling in J on business, I would let these things slide. But I thought I will share my response with the FT community just because I tend to have a lower tolerance when I am on vacation and travelling with Mrs. toflyer. And that is what people usually use their FF points for.
AC's service in J may be average but at least they are consistent.
So finally reached Sydney and quickly checking this (I am addicted!). Couple points:
- I was not complaining that the flight was delayed. I understand that delays happen. But when passengers are dealing with a 4+ hours of delay, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect information and not to be spoken to rudely when asking for such info (especially after you continue to receive conflicting information). In my 7+ years of flying, I had not experienced this, but perhaps I have just been lucky.
- There are a quite a few things I did not mention but will briefly highlight
- One does not expect J class dinner service to last for 4 hours into a 9 hours flight. Again, service was great but poorly organized.
- My wife has an allergy. I had placed the request with AC and TK and confirmed on a few occasions. TK had the special meal for the first flight (YYZ to IST, but not on the second. The cabin crew, instead of coming up with a solution, simply said, "Sorry, but I can't do anything - it's the ground staff's mistake." Her allergy is something the cabin crew could have dealt with even if the special meal was inadvertently forgotten.
Again, when I am travelling in J on business, I would let these things slide. But I thought I will share my response with the FT community just because I tend to have a lower tolerance when I am on vacation and travelling with Mrs. toflyer. And that is what people usually use their FF points for.
AC's service in J may be average but at least they are consistent.
on a RTW
Feb 1, 2012, 9:22 am
#89
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Feb 1, 2012, 9:26 am
#90
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And I only talked about language. Service was the second-worst (after United of course) I have ever had.
Maybe TK and UA have same flight crew training?