zcat18

Agreed. I think it it is very out of touch to believe that nobody would take a job where they are regularly asked to make 15-hour trips in Y. Personally, I would love a job that offered me the ability to travel that much, earn untold hundreds of thousands of FF miles, do something at least marginally interesting from a work perspective, and still be paid well to do so.

Also, from a business perspective, if I were my own p/l center like the OP and was being *paid* to save the company $$$, unless I had some sort of physical disability or ailment that precluded me from taking long trips in coach, I would at least try to save the company money by flying Y as often as possible.

stimpy

I've flown on average 250K miles per year for 15 years. If I had done that in Y I would have significant health issues. That's all the justification I need. I do fly in Y on PtP flights of 2 hours or less. Even then, if I have a big guy next to me it takes me about a half day to fully recover. On a 10 hour+ flight it would take a week to recover. That's just my personal physical issue and we are all different.

One other point is that with my millions of miles flown, I have of course been through many airline mechanical and weather issues. As a biz or First passenger, and top elite, I am always taken care of before the back of the plane. Many times I arrive at my destination hours or even a day before the Y passengers make it. The best example of this was on a UA LHR-LAX flight. We were stuck at the gate at LHR for about 2 hours when a UA agent came up to each of us in First class and whispered that they had a seat for us on the NZ flight going to LAX. They said that they were whispering because as soon as we got off, they were going to announce to the rest of the plane that the flight was cancelled and they would be re-booked on a flight the next day. I made my meetings on time, the people in the back did not.

Often1

There's no correct answer to the question. There are simply factors to consider and balance. Every business is different and every business faces different competetive pressures.

Science Goy

In my opinion J is almost never justified; the need to arrive well-rested can be satisfied by flying out one day earlier and resting. Very, very few people make so much that the cost of an extra day's salary, hotel, and per diem exceed the price difference between international Y and J.

EuropeanPete

300K international miles in Y would surely be intolerable to all but the superhuman. You can debate Y vs. J and there are some arguments on each side, but at 300K per year we're talking nearly a month a year actually in the air and another two weeks or so around airports.

I'd either go J or attempt to cut down on the travel by at least 2/3rds with use of videoconferencing and the like.

lwildernorva

Again, from a business perspective, a really good point. There are times when you need to be at your destination at or close to your appointed time, and the airlines are going to work harder to get their high-dollar elite members there than their Y passengers.

From my personal perspective, I definitely consider the length of the flight. Anything under about four hours, I can generally handle in Y although Stimpy's point about a row made crowded by a large passenger can make me wish I'd moved up front. Anything over four hours and anything on a red eye is a totally different story. A flight from SFO-JFK on AA a little over a year ago sealed the deal for me on this aspect.

Let me suggest one more thing. Your company has a policy already. Saving money by spending less than this policy allows may have good or bad effects, depending on the size of your company and its corporate culture. I think the good effects are obvious and are more likely to be realized the smaller and leaner your company is.

As the company you work for gets bigger, generally, there is a culture of corporate perks expected at each level. And somebody who comes in and is seen to undercut that culture may be viewed as endangering the perks expected at and above that level. Keep in mind that at some of the bigger companies, the reason that you get to fly in J is that someone a level or two or three above you expects to fly in F and someone a level or two above them expects to have access to a private jet.

As Mel Brooks famously said in Blazing Saddles, "We've gotta protect our phony, baloney jobs, gentlemen." Just substitute in "perks," and I think you'll find that's the attitude at a lot of places.

ft101

This reflects my companies policy and suits our business needs, much as I dislike it. However, some companies can easily justify the cost if, for example, a customer requires support on site and penalty clauses start to kick in until plant or equipment is functioning again.

Science Goy

Good point, I hadn't thought about cases where the travel is truly booked at the last minute. My company could also suffer severe penalties if I don't arrive at the destination on time, but since my trips are planned far in advance this just means I have to leave (at least) a day earlier than necessary, flying in deep-discount Y.

JPL9869

I work for a company that does $3B in revenue however, the division I work for is essentially a start up. It is our parent company that has the 7+ in J policy and yes, there are jets at corporate. I report to our GM who reports to the President / CEO of our parent company. I am the only one in my division that travels overseas.

My compensation / bonus will be based on profitablity of the company as a whole. I'm sure in a year or two, there won't be a problem booking J, but at this point I feel that every dollar counts.

Depending on the flight, I don't really feel more rested in J, just a little more comfortable. A little ambien helps as well... I'm just thankful for status...

benzemalyonnais

When I was working in HK profit wasn't an issue, but they still kept bringing up the cost of J (maybe CX had something to do with it....). I think that everyone's just looking at finances and making sure they are sustainable. A pretty easy thing to cut is J travel.

Anyways, I did not enjoy all of those flights all over the place, and I'm young. Business travel at first was great, but then it really started making life a lot tougher for me, especially being based in a foreign country.

Now I've got a much better situation and don't feel that I'm being used as much.

Million Mile Secrets

I made that argument when I was in finance, but it wasn't accepted. The next proposal of having employees split the savings between Y & J wasn't accepted as well.

The rule now is that you sit in coach for flights less than 8 hours, but get to fly J for flights longer than 8 hours.

D582

My company's policy is J is permitted for 4 hours or more, for managers and above. For anyone lower than manager level, J is allowed for 4 hours or more with approval (i.e. likely yes for a TPAC flight, maybe for a TATL, unlikely for a 5 hour trans-con).

Also anyone who has to fly at least 20 round-trips per year is allowed J for flights of 2 hours or more.

The justification is similar to what others have mentioned...better rested and more comfortable employees are more productive and can hit the ground running. I can barely sleep in Y, but can easily in a lie-flat seat in J (Air Canada international J is lie flat seats)

SFflyer123

For all those who say that they cannot function the next day unless they're in J or that they would quit unless they're in J, what would you do if the company offered you the cash of J instead of the seat? That is, if a J ticket is $6000 and the Y ticket is $1500, and the company offered you $6000 to spend how you want (spend all $6k on the seat or pocket $4500 cash for yourself), I bet you'd see a lot more people in the back of the bus.

And I bet they'd show up for their meeting the next day...

Science Goy

I am well-rested and ready to hit the ground running after a 12-hour flight in Y. I'd expect anyone working for me to do the same. If anyone told me that they couldn't work productively after flying in Y, it'd be quite easy to replace them with one of the thousands of people who could.

Monty_GER

That depends on the kind of work these people have to do.

And to be honest: The 12 hour flight normally is not the complete time of travel. My last TATL was a ~10 hour flight, but with connection, layover and transfer I reached more than 17 hours.
Do you really expect the people to be 100% fit for work after such a journey?

I must be a very weak person...

S.