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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Jun 4, 12, 3:55 pm
  #1096  
 
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Originally Posted by cs57 View Post
one of the two airports with an intersecting road with the runway is Gibraltar. The other (noneuropean) one I remember is St Vincent in the Grenadines.
Correct cs57 for one of the airports! My wife and I flew a DC-3 operated by GT (Gibair -- Gibraltar Airways) from Gibraltar to Tangier for a couple of days when we were visiting in the south of Spain in 1968.

And thanks for the St. Vincent info -- I've only visited there by sea.
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Old Jun 4, 12, 4:32 pm
  #1097  
 
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The Airport with sand runways is Barra in Scotland. Flights are operated by Loganair (FlyBe) using Twin Otter aircraft. IIRC, flights to Glasgow and Benbecula are offered. There may have been an article in a recent aviation magazine like "Airports of the World" about flight operations at Barra.
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Old Jun 4, 12, 7:32 pm
  #1098  
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Originally Posted by cs57 View Post
4) MIA/CLE--United at 4:00pm
5) Miami/DTW--Delta at 1:15pm
8) DTW/LAX--United
9) IAH/LAX--National at 6:55pm (DC10 on other days)
10) PSP/PHX--American (TWA also flew the route using 707)
What the hell, cs57! You got yourself a copy of that same OAG?!
Your answers are right on! Correct-a-mundo!
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Old Jun 5, 12, 12:31 am
  #1099  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
3. Daily 747 nonstops between Chicago and Montreal were offered by this airline.
.
BOAC, if the timetable is dated 15 March 1974. British Airways, the merger of BOAC and BEA, came into effect on 31 March 1974, so this would be the last appearence of BOAC in the timetable. IATA letters stayed as BA, and the flight numbers had already been de-conflicted, so it might not be apparent. BOAC had a long tradition of serving Chicago through Montreal.
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Old Jun 5, 12, 12:51 am
  #1100  
 
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Originally Posted by cs57 View Post
The Airport with sand runways is Barra in Scotland. Flights are operated by Loganair (FlyBe) using Twin Otter aircraft. IIRC, flights to Glasgow and Benbecula are offered.
We actually did a FlyerTalk group trip to Barra on the Twin Otter in 2005, with the cream of the FT aviation nuts, trip report here

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-...sion-long.html

which if it hadn't been a couple of months after I got married (^^) I would have been on like a shot !

The beach airport there opened in the 1930s using De Havilland DH.89 Dragon Rapides (wooden fuselage), which lasted until the 1950s when BEA bought two De Havilland Herons. Early 1970s saw Short Skyvans, which didn't work too well, and the British Airways merger saw the route transferred to Loganair, who worked through the Islander and other types until the Twin Otter became the standard for the last 30 years or so. Loganair eventually came back under the BA banner as a franchise (hence the Twin Otter on the Barra wikipedia page is in BA livery), but in recent years went back to being independent (new livery) and then became a FlyBe franchise (yet another new livery). Service has always been to Glasgow, any other destination, generally Benecula, just being a bit of a triangular route filler. Aircraft are always given a substantial water wash on return to Glasgow each trip, to remove the salt and sand spray from underneath.
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Old Jun 5, 12, 7:13 am
  #1101  
 
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Originally Posted by cs57 View Post
The Airport with sand runways is Barra in Scotland. Flights are operated by Loganair (FlyBe) using Twin Otter aircraft. IIRC, flights to Glasgow and Benbecula are offered. There may have been an article in a recent aviation magazine like "Airports of the World" about flight operations at Barra.
cs57 is correct, and I'm embarrassed to say it didn't occur to me to do a FT forum search before posting the question, or I would have known the following:

Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
We actually did a FlyerTalk group trip to Barra on the Twin Otter in 2005, with the cream of the FT aviation nuts, trip report here

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-...sion-long.html
thanks WHBM for the details!
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Old Jun 5, 12, 10:30 am
  #1102  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
3. Daily 747 nonstops between Chicago and Montreal were offered by this airline.

6. Flight 27 between Las Vegas and San Francisco was operated by this airline’s DC-10.
3. That would be AF -- ORY-YUL-ORD and return

6. NA -- flight 27 was a sort of milk run MIA-MSY-IAH-LAS-SFO; but I can't find an equivalent return.
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Old Jun 6, 12, 4:18 am
  #1103  
 
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Just some notes on OAG etc.

OAG was long seen as a US product, it was an offshoot from the long-established railway equivalent ORG, whose older editions also usefully contain airline schedules (a bit condensed). I like the way the older ones I have (eg 1960) are just straight prints from a computer line printer of the time, with wobbly character justification. I could never get my head around their approach of collating the schedules by destination rather than origin however, the reverse of normal practice. They long had two volumes, North America and Rest of the World, and I get the impression that most of what is now available in the USA is the domestic one, which must have had a much greater circulation.

From the UK, and indeed across much of the rest of the world, the equivalent was the ABC, which also grew out of a railway timetable publisher. First edition was 1946, and I have one - don't think I've got something of great value, though, because the publisher did a reprint run of it in 1996 for the 50th anniversary, and it's actually pretty thin on content anyway. When it got too big for one volume in the 1960s they moved on to two volumes as well, but splitting the alphabet instead so you always need both. ABC eventually bought out OAG, but the continuing product was named OAG although it is to the old ABC format.

There was a third publication, also from the UK, which was Bradshaw's Air Guide, yet another outgrowth from a railway timetable publisher, which became popular pre-WW2 and continued until 1956 when it was closed down. I have several of these from the 1940s/50s, they are a much more convenient size than ABC, and were always fully in "timetable" format rather than quick reference, with some very clever manual editing and typesetting to minimise paper taken and yet get everything in (their UK-wide train timetable was the same). How Bradsahw and ABC managed to gather worldwide data in the 1940s/50s (and they appear remarkably complete) has to be a great achievement.
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Old Jun 7, 12, 9:47 am
  #1104  
 
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
We actually did a FlyerTalk group trip to Barra on the Twin Otter in 2005, with the cream of the FT aviation nuts, trip report here

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-...sion-long.html

which if it hadn't been a couple of months after I got married (^^) I would have been on like a shot !

The beach airport there opened in the 1930s using De Havilland DH.89 Dragon Rapides (wooden fuselage), which lasted until the 1950s when BEA bought two De Havilland Herons. Early 1970s saw Short Skyvans, which didn't work too well, and the British Airways merger saw the route transferred to Loganair, who worked through the Islander and other types until the Twin Otter became the standard for the last 30 years or so. Loganair eventually came back under the BA banner as a franchise (hence the Twin Otter on the Barra wikipedia page is in BA livery), but in recent years went back to being independent (new livery) and then became a FlyBe franchise (yet another new livery). Service has always been to Glasgow, any other destination, generally Benecula, just being a bit of a triangular route filler. Aircraft are always given a substantial water wash on return to Glasgow each trip, to remove the salt and sand spray from underneath.
Another interesting unpaved airport was Virgin Gorda (VIJ) in the British Virgin Islands. I say "was" as I think the landing strip may have been recently paved as part of an improvement project several years ago to lengthen the runway and improve this small airport in general. Any intel concerning this from anyone would be appreciated!

Back in the day, various operators served VIJ including Eastern Metro Express and Air Sunshine with DHC-6 "Twin Otter" aircraft. I also seem to recall that American Eagle (Executive) operated the CASA 212 into VIJ. The short runway, located parallel to the ocean, was composed of granitic sand and bordered by large granite boulders which are common on this beautiful island. I always enjoyed landings and takeoffs at VIJ in the "Twin Otter"!

BTW, we had a great sailing vacation in the Caribbean. Our journey on AA LFT-DFW-MIA-SXM was just fine with a brand new B737-800 operated on the DFW-MIA segment. We enjoyed AA's first class lunch service DFW-MIA as well as dinner in F from MIA to SXM. The Admirals Clubs at DFW and MIA were nice as well. I'm an old CO man (now UA, of course) so I was looking forward to our experience on AA and hoping for the best. We enjoyed our trip to SXM with great service noted and all flights on time.

However, our return home yesterday on AA was another matter entirely! No upgrades were available SXM to MIA; but no big deal as we scored reclining exit row seats with the middle seat left empty.

Out of MIA, we were once again unable to upgrade on a rather elderly B757-200. And then we had to divert to SAT due to WX at DFW. We sat on a remote hardstand at SAT for several hours (no gate available) before the flight crew was finally able to get fuel along with the necessary paperwork to continue our journey to DFW. And then we landed at DFW during a very active thunderstorm. Due to the lightning, we stopped 20 feet short of the gate - and then sat there for quite some time before finally being able to deplane.

We finally got on an AA Eagle ERJ-140 some time later and then took off during another strong thunderstorm for our DFW-LFT flight. All in all, what with the numerous AA flight cancellations last evening at DFW due to WX, I think we were lucky to get home at all last night following a 16.5 hour travel day!

I hope to share some photos of our trip with all of you by this weekend.
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Old Jun 7, 12, 10:24 am
  #1105  
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Originally Posted by miniliq View Post
3. That would be AF -- ORY-YUL-ORD and return

6. NA -- flight 27 was a sort of milk run MIA-MSY-IAH-LAS-SFO; but I can't find an equivalent return.
As of the March 15, 1974 OAG that I'm referencing, you are entirely correct, miniliq. I've no doubt WHBM is also correct as to the former BOAC service, but it was not in the schedule as of 3/15/74. And, as I mentioned earlier, the NA DC-10 service between LAS and SFO was directional. There was no return DC-10 service from SFO to LAS.

Widebodied jets were once scheduled on what today would be unthinkable routes. Some of the more surprising routes once flown by widebodies include DEN-COS, MCI-STL, MIA-FLL, EWR-BDL, BWI-IAD, MCO-TPA, PHX-LAX, MSP-Duluth, LAX-SAN and DEN-SLC. Most of these routes were add ons to longer services, such as ATL-SEA-PDX. While it makes much better sense to utilize a more fuel efficient Jungle Jet or DHC-8 type turboprop on routes like these, it sure was fun (and often very affordable) to fly aboard a 747 on a route like SEA-PDX. A good example was my first 747SP flight aboard Pan Am between SFO and LAX in 1979. I purchased a standby fare for $13.00.

Thanks also to WHBM for the interesting bit on the ABC/OAG. Most all of mine are post-1966 under the current format. I have one from 1964 but it reads like an airline style timetable. I much prefer the later format.

And finally, Welcome Home, jlemon! Glad you had a good trip to the Caribbean.
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Old Jun 8, 12, 4:58 am
  #1106  
 
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Well it was a bit of a punt by me on that 1974 747 from Chicago to Montreal being BOAC. Best I have in my collection of theirs is a 1971, and that has a daily 707/VC10 (about the only run in the timetable that doesn't specify one or the other) London-Montreal-Chicago, so I was guessing that it had upgraded onto a 747 as BOAC built up quite a substantial early fleet of these.

Quite a number of European operators at the time did this combination of destinations, firstly starting a New York, then when that was established a Montreal-Chicago double drop route. The Canadian authorities always wanted to tie route licences to use Montreal rather than Toronto, one of the by-products of this being the long-continued existence of Transatlantic charter flights to Toronto from all sorts of European points when scheduled services were tied to Montreal, a trend which still somewhat continues to this day, long after Transatlantic charters to the USA disappeared.

The all-time classic charter operator of these flights in about 1965-90, notable particularly for their in-flight service, was Wardair, which still is a memory of many in both Canada and Europe. They initially used a 727 on Vancouver to Europe (including myself as a kid), stopping halfway at Sondrestrom in Greenland for fuel.

Meanwhile, a question for jlemon. Did you stand behind the runway at SXM ?
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Old Jun 8, 12, 9:40 am
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Well it was a bit of a punt by me on that 1974 747 from Chicago to Montreal being BOAC. Best I have in my collection of theirs is a 1971, and that has a daily 707/VC10 (about the only run in the timetable that doesn't specify one or the other) London-Montreal-Chicago, so I was guessing that it had upgraded onto a 747 as BOAC built up quite a substantial early fleet of these.

Quite a number of European operators at the time did this combination of destinations, firstly starting a New York, then when that was established a Montreal-Chicago double drop route. The Canadian authorities always wanted to tie route licences to use Montreal rather than Toronto, one of the by-products of this being the long-continued existence of Transatlantic charter flights to Toronto from all sorts of European points when scheduled services were tied to Montreal, a trend which still somewhat continues to this day, long after Transatlantic charters to the USA disappeared.

The all-time classic charter operator of these flights in about 1965-90, notable particularly for their in-flight service, was Wardair, which still is a memory of many in both Canada and Europe. They initially used a 727 on Vancouver to Europe (including myself as a kid), stopping halfway at Sondrestrom in Greenland for fuel.

Meanwhile, a question for jlemon. Did you stand behind the runway at SXM ?


No, we did not! Instead, we were comfortably seated just a few feet away off axis from the end of the runway (and the adjacent road and beach) outdoors at the Sunset Beach Bar & Grill with suitable rum punches in hand!

We did witness a few brave (and perhaps foolhardy) souls stand directly behind departing aircraft, which included a KLM B747-400 en route to AMS. It appeared no one was killed or injured by this "exciting" activity....

I did stand under the approach path for an arriving LIAT Dash 8 and will attempt to post a photo of this as well as others in the near future.....
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Old Jun 8, 12, 10:12 am
  #1108  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
[/B]

No, we did not! Instead, we were comfortably seated just a few feet away off axis from the end of the runway (and the adjacent road and beach) outdoors at the Sunset Beach Bar & Grill with suitable rum punches in hand!

We did witness a few brave (and perhaps foolhardy) souls stand directly behind departing aircraft, which included a KLM B747-400 en route to AMS. It appeared no one was killed or injured by this "exciting" activity....
Oh, sybarites

I've only seen pictures of it. If I ever got there I would make sure I wore swimming goggles against the debris blowback, and be certain that everyone with me is a good swimmer in case you get blown back into the sea.

Then, afterwards, up for one of those rum punches. Or two.
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Old Jun 8, 12, 10:30 am
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Oh, sybarites

I've only seen pictures of it. If I ever got there I would make sure I wore swimming goggles against the debris blowback, and be certain that everyone with me is a good swimmer in case you get blown back into the sea.

Then, afterwards, up for one of those rum punches. Or two.
Well, hey, we were on vacation! Rum punches and the Caribbean just seem to smoothly go hand in hand, you know!

There are also several rather large concrete curbs on the small roadway located between the end of the runway and the beach at SXM. One is in the middle of the road separating the traffic and the other separates the road from the actual beach sand. Recently, a young lady standing by the perimeter fence behind a departing aircraft did get blown airborne but did not make it to the beach. She instead landed head first on the concrete curb. I'm not sure if her injuries were serious but I think it's really not a good idea to stand behind departing jetliners at SXM - plus, one would also receive a rather unacceptable amount of sand in the old rum punchy!
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Old Jun 8, 12, 10:33 am
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It seems like only small charter aircraft are using Virgin Gorda Airport (VIJ) these days due to ongoing dispute with the government of the BVI. Details are quite unclear as to exactly what the problem is.
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