jrl767

I am pretty sure that they ran MD-11s out of their San Jose CA (SJC) mini-hub that they set up following the acquisitions of AirCal and Reno Air; they may have operated a SEA-NRT flight as well ... the routes didn't pan out because AA was unable to draw O/D traffic from SFO to SJC, and couldn't generate enough market share at SEA

jlemon

I also believe that American initially faced a challenge with MD-11 operations on the San Jose-Tokyo nonstop route due to the relatively short runway at the time at SJC (which I think was eventually lengthened as ANA is currently operating the 787 nonstop SJC-NRT).

I seem to recall stories concerning the AA MD-11 taking off from San Jose and then landing almost immediately just up the Bay in Oakland in order to take on additional fuel prior to departing once again for Narita....

Icecat

When AA started NRT service from SJC it was with a DC-10. The airport was in the process of extending the runway from 8900 ft to 11000 ft. Due to the runway length, and weather conditions, a splash and go stop was required at OAK some days. Once the work was completed, no stop was needed. Later AA would operate the MD-11 and then the 777 on this service.

Icecat

Again AA began SJC service with the DC-10 then to the MD-11 and finally the 777. Flights from other high tech areas BOS/AUS for example connected with the NRT flight. In fact the flight number 128 was actually BOS-SJC-NRT (757 on the BOS-SJC leg. During the MD-11 era, AA operated a DFW-SJC MD-11 sector to position the aircraft. It should be noted that when AA was awarded the SJC-NRT authority, there #1 desire was LAX-NRT. Even at the time the service was discontinued in 2006, AA admitted the SJC-NRT was making a "small profit" but they needed the aircraft elsewhere.

jlemon

I'll go ahead and answer the above follow up question....here's the sched:

NA 224: Key West-Miami-West Palm Beach-Orlando-Washington National-Philadelphia-New York Kennedy
Op: Daily
Equip: "Electra PROP JET"
Note: NA 224 departed EYW at 3:10pm and arrived JFK at 10:49pm

By the next year, National would replace their one daily Electra flight into Key West with jet service with one daily flight as well. And in 1969, NA 424 was flying the same northbound routing as NA 224 above. NA 424 departed EYW at 3:15pm and arrived JFK at 10:15pm. The equipment was a Boeing 727. I also believe that National may have been the only operator of the 727 in sched pax service into Key West over the years.....

WHBM

This sort of oddball long-line multi-stop flight, where the aircraft returned in a completely different direction, was a feature of a number of US operators, both trunk and local, in the days before hubs became the way to go. Others like TWA did it extensively as well but National seems the most pronounced. It appears that they wished to serve Key West to Miami, then the aircraft was assigned to a Florida intrastate operation, then to an Orlando to DCA/PHL flight, and finally a tag to JFK to pick up its next duty. It was just that they were then all strung together into one flight, as if there was somehow a shortage of flight numbers.

I have also wondered if the mail contracts in the USA were somehow responsible for this. Mail demand and the associated contracts, like freight, is essentially a series of one-way flows, whereas passenger service tends to balance both ways. Had National picked up a contract for evening Washington to JFK mails ? Did these contracts stipulate through flights, without connections ?

jlemon

Indeed, before the hub and spoke system really came into vogue here in the U.S., one saw quite a bit of this in terms of fairly long, multistop routings. Northwest and Western come to mind as well, especially concerning some of their domestic routes back in the day serving smaller destinations in the intermountain west.

And I will be posing a quiz item in the future concerning one of these interesting multistop routes that was transcontinental in nature (from Boston to San Francisco) which was served back in the 1960s with a turboprop....

WHBM

Ah. Now here's a chance to consider who this could be. Firstly, who served both Boston and San Francisco in turboprop days.

I think it's only Pan Am, United, American, TWA and National.

Pan Am never had a turboprop (and didn't do domestic). TWA likewise never had a turboprop. United's only turboprops, the Viscount, never got beyond the Midwest, and I think that AA likewise never got their Electras to California.

Can it be National then, pivoting on Jacksonville FL, and getting there via Houston and Las Vegas, with an Electra ? Must have taken all day.

moondog

This is in regards to my AA planned new routes to NRT in 1998 that didn't happen.

Boston was actually the answer I was looking for (because I distinctly recall seeing it on the AA timetable -- nonstop on a 777 -- and, there was much fanfare about it at the time), but iirc there was at least one more route listed than didn't pan out.

As for why BOS-NRT never happened, runway length was the excuse given to the public, but one would think that they took this issue into consideration before filing it.

Moving onto SJC, I think the SJC flight was initially an MD11, but by the time I arrived in the Bay Area (1997), it had already switched to a 777, which actually didn't face problems with SJC's runway length very often. However, SJC-TPE (1300 extra miles) had to stop in Oakland frequently, though not all the time because it rarely went out heavy (extremely poor LF).

Seat 2A

If you click on this post and scroll down a bit, I've highlighted some interesting multi-stop itineraries, including a 4 stopper between Seattle and Portland (Oregon, that is...)

jlemon, those multistop route questions sound as entertaining as a New York steak sounds delicious! Thank you in advance for your efforts!

jrl767

I suspect there was at least one intermediate stop between BOS and JAX, most likely JFK (then IDL) and/or DCA; the flight probably served MSY as well en route JAX-HOU

jlemon

Well, I knew I should not have let this cat out of the bag prematurely.....

WHBM, you are correct, sir....it was National with an L-188. Here's the sched from the spring of 1962.....

NA 223: Boston-New York Idlewild-Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa-New Orleans-Houston Hobby-Las Vegas-San Francisco
Op: Daily
Equip: "Electra II PROP JET" (featuring first and coach)
Notes: No local traffic permitted from LAS to SFO (and IAH would not open for another seven years, of course)

And, indeed, this flight from BOS to SFO with seven intermediate stops en route took most of the day: NA 223 departed BOS at 7:30am and arrived SFO at 8:42pm.

The Electra then remained overnight at SFO and departed the next morning on this eastbound routing.....

NA 218: San Francisco-Las Vegas-Houston Hobby-New Orleans-Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville
Op: Daily
Equip: "Electra II PROP JET"
Notes: No local traffic permitted from SFO to LAS. NA 218 departed SFO at 8:50am and arrived JAX at 10:15pm

Also note that NA 218 and NA 223 were the only two National flights serving Las Vegas at this time. In addition, the airline had yet to serve LAS with jet equipment. That would change, of course.....

WHBM

Do you know, I felt a bit bad about this one afterwards, stealing JL's thunder from a doubtless carefully prepared question.

Let me then compensate in part with a similar one. In the same year, 1962, the two UK main airlines that later merged into British Airways, BOAC did the overseas long haul, and BEA the European flights. Almost all the latter's trips were just simple hops, out and then back home again. However, there was one flight which served seven points, with six sectors. Care to specify the end points, and even better, where it stopped along the way and the aircraft type.

jlemon

Ah, no reason whatsoever to feel bad, WHBM! Please know I'm delighted to share this interesting Electra routing flown by National back in the day with the OTA&AQ gang!

And, oh by the way, referencing posts 4816 and 4817 above, all of you will see that we still have just three quiz items to go from my most recent set. I'll let them sit out there just a bit longer and then provide answers this weekend.....

jrl767

from the IDL base, AA ran their 990s to CVG, DAL, DTW, ORD, and STL