Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.
formerly rt23456p
Join Date: May 2017
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3. Why CA never ever flown between PEK and AMS?
Was it because China Airlines (of Taiwan) flew to AMS?
7. Which Asian Carrier(excluding Aeroflot) operated the Tu-114 first?
Japan Airlines had joint venture flights with Aeroflot.
Was it because China Airlines (of Taiwan) flew to AMS?
7. Which Asian Carrier(excluding Aeroflot) operated the Tu-114 first?
Japan Airlines had joint venture flights with Aeroflot.
The answer to 3. was because CZ flew CAN-PEK-AMS back in the 1990s with a 767 they somehow leased before CA started non-stop service and has continued to operate the route since, and there is a policy with CAAC allowing only one Mainland Chinese airline fly on any single long-haul routes without special exemption approved by them. In return, CA filed a complaint to CAAC to not allow CZ to fly an A380 between PEK-AMS, as it really put the competitivity of CA ex-PEK and its agreement with LH more useless. Also, this policy is also the reason why HU launches PVG-BOS and PEK-BOS with 2-3 weekly services just to annoy CA and MU, after realizing they can't fly CSX-SFO, as CZ decided to do 3 weekly services of CAN-CSX-SFO, blocking there largest monopoly base in mainland China to fly to SFO.
Last edited by PES_B1; Aug 9, 2022 at 7:00 am Reason: Forgot to quote
formerly rt23456p
Join Date: May 2017
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The answer to 3. was because CZ flew CAN-PEK-AMS back in the 1990s with a 767 they somehow leased before CA started non-stop service and has continued to operate the route since, and there is a policy with CAAC allowing only one Mainland Chinese airline fly on any single long-haul routes without special exemption approved by them. In return, CA filed a complaint to CAAC to not allow CZ to fly an A380 between PEK-AMS, as it really put the competitivity of CA ex-PEK and its agreement with LH more useless. Also, this policy is also the reason why HU launches PVG-BOS and PEK-BOS with 2-3 weekly services just to annoy CA and MU, after realizing they can't fly CSX-SFO, as CZ decided to do 3 weekly services of CAN-CSX-SFO, blocking there largest monopoly base in mainland China to fly to SFO.
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One for me I guess.
I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.
Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.
Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
Last edited by WHBM; Aug 9, 2022 at 8:11 am
formerly rt23456p
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,210
One for me I guess.
I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.
Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.
Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
formerly rt23456p
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,210
One for me I guess.
I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.
Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.
Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
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Incidentally, rt23456p, welcome to our little discussion here. Some good questions there, will keep us going for a while
formerly rt23456p
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Wondering how on earth can these planes cut them off and somehow fold them back in a timely manner? On do they don't cut them off even when the plane is <30km/h?
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In 1974 I had a memorable and headache-producing night in the company of several SAS cabin crew people in Tashkent at the hotel they used for layovers, fueled by cheap Uzbek champagne. Oy. God, they were all gorgeous.
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5. Name the most popular airport in Thailand that TG(including WE) doesn't fly to?
8. Where did CX fly to SIN excluding HKG pre-pandemic?
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When United did the deal for the 20 Caravelles the FAA said 'No way' for this to happen at US airports (plus some other elements), so the aircraft, which had worked through the Caravelle III and 6N, was re-engineered by Rolls-Royce on the Avon turbojets to have engine reversers instead, hence the Caravelle 6R for United (and others). R for Reversers. Curiously not everyone followed suit; Air France continued with the Caravelle III spec to their last purchase quite some years later.
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Correct for USM, because PG owned that airport and more or less runs a monopoly on it.
Correct for BKK, I remember the sub-400 USD SIN-BKK in J on A359, too sad I didn't have a chance to fly it, I was literally writing plans to my parent about flying the route and visiting Bangkok(Obviously the flying CX 359 in J is more of a priority over visiting BKK)
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Not sure if I understand the question correctly, but I'll throw out SAS' DC-8S services that stopped in Moscow and Tashkent en route to various Asian cities, e.g. CPH-TAS-BKK, CPH-MOW-TYO, etc.
In 1974 I had a memorable and headache-producing night in the company of several SAS cabin crew people in Tashkent at the hotel they used for layovers, fueled by cheap Uzbek champagne. Oy. God, they were all gorgeous.
In 1974 I had a memorable and headache-producing night in the company of several SAS cabin crew people in Tashkent at the hotel they used for layovers, fueled by cheap Uzbek champagne. Oy. God, they were all gorgeous.
sk67-01.jpg (980×1201) (timetableimages.com)
If Uzbek champagne is like other old Soviet (and modern Russian) "Champanska", stereotypically from Crimea, it may be cheap but is not poor quality at all, and gives the French production from Reims a distinctly good run for its money. Shall I say I actually prefer it !
CAAC did what everyone else did between Asia and western Europe, and routed over India and the Middle East, not having the special procedures to cross the Soviet Union other than flights actually to Moscow.
Last edited by WHBM; Aug 9, 2022 at 10:19 am
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formerly rt23456p
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For 10, I knew there was KUL, but didn't know that MKZ also have F service.
Last edited by PES_B1; Aug 9, 2022 at 10:37 am Reason: Addition of materials