Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Aug 9, 2022, 6:57 am
  #26251  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
3. Why CA never ever flown between PEK and AMS?
Was it because China Airlines (of Taiwan) flew to AMS?


7. Which Asian Carrier(excluding Aeroflot) operated the Tu-114 first?
Japan Airlines had joint venture flights with Aeroflot.
[
The answer to 3. was because CZ flew CAN-PEK-AMS back in the 1990s with a 767 they somehow leased before CA started non-stop service and has continued to operate the route since, and there is a policy with CAAC allowing only one Mainland Chinese airline fly on any single long-haul routes without special exemption approved by them. In return, CA filed a complaint to CAAC to not allow CZ to fly an A380 between PEK-AMS, as it really put the competitivity of CA ex-PEK and its agreement with LH more useless. Also, this policy is also the reason why HU launches PVG-BOS and PEK-BOS with 2-3 weekly services just to annoy CA and MU, after realizing they can't fly CSX-SFO, as CZ decided to do 3 weekly services of CAN-CSX-SFO, blocking there largest monopoly base in mainland China to fly to SFO.

Last edited by PES_B1; Aug 9, 2022 at 7:00 am Reason: Forgot to quote
PES_B1 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 6:59 am
  #26252  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
The answer to 3. was because CZ flew CAN-PEK-AMS back in the 1990s with a 767 they somehow leased before CA started non-stop service and has continued to operate the route since, and there is a policy with CAAC allowing only one Mainland Chinese airline fly on any single long-haul routes without special exemption approved by them. In return, CA filed a complaint to CAAC to not allow CZ to fly an A380 between PEK-AMS, as it really put the competitivity of CA ex-PEK and its agreement with LH more useless. Also, this policy is also the reason why HU launches PVG-BOS and PEK-BOS with 2-3 weekly services just to annoy CA and MU, after realizing they can't fly CSX-SFO, as CZ decided to do 3 weekly services of CAN-CSX-SFO, blocking there largest monopoly base in mainland China to fly to SFO.
PES_B1 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 8:03 am
  #26253  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,502
Originally Posted by rt23456p
7. Which Asian Carrier(excluding Aeroflot) operated the Tu-114 first?
One for me I guess.

I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.

Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.

Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
strickerj and rt23456p like this.

Last edited by WHBM; Aug 9, 2022 at 8:11 am
WHBM is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 8:14 am
  #26254  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by WHBM
One for me I guess.

I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.

Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.

Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
If you allow me to consider China's CAAC as western after the Sino-Soviet Conflicts, then it should be one of the CAAC routes to Western Europe and Moscow with their IL-62s, it is funny that USSR have no issues selling IL-62s and training Chinese pilots in 1971 for the plane consider the imminent full-scale war at one point between the two reds.
PES_B1 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 8:19 am
  #26255  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by WHBM
One for me I guess.

I think the only non-Aeroflot carrier associated with the Tu-114 was Japan Air Lines, on Tokyo to Moscow. In fact, it was operated by Aeroflot, with just some supplementary JAL decals on the outside, and a combined JAL/Aeroflot cabin crew, but fully Soviet pilots. Probably starting around 1967, it predated the JAL DC8 service to Moscow and on to western Europe by a couple of years. Aeroflot wanted the service to Japan, but were very insistent on reciprocal rights, and as the early Il-62 didn't have the range, the big turboprop was used for a couple of years in a joint operation. It was very difficult technically at first to run services across Siberia; the ATC staff, and many were required through the waypoints along the way, didn't speak English, so couldn't handle international flights, while the Tu114 technical manuals, instrumentation, etc were likewise only in Russian. The huge flight deck crew (captain, first officer ["second pilot" in Russian], navigator, interpreter, KGB agent, and I think TWO flight engineers) were assisted by the interpreter, into English, when dealing with Japanese ATC.

Japan Air Lines would have to wait until 1968 or later anyway for the introduction of the DC8-62 to be able to run to Moscow with their own equipment. Although the earlier DC8-50 looks capable of doing the distance from Tokyo to Moscow, the issue was there was no alternate airport available to western carriers, so if Moscow Sheremetyevo became weather-bound during the flight they had to continue to Copenhagen, or if really pushed to Helsinki, which is just a bit nearer. It was not an issue, of course, for the Tu114.

Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
Thanks for the information, the Soviets was crazy at that point, adapting bomber design into civilian planes, with their Tu-104 from Tu-16(Yes, China still flys the H-6K, a turbofan version of the Ty-16 today) and Tu-114 from Tu-95, some of the Tu-104 even uses the drag parachute at landing, something I don't think any jetliner would use nowadays given the complex procedure to arm those things up.
PES_B1 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 8:27 am
  #26256  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,502
Originally Posted by rt23456p
some of the Tu-104 even uses the drag parachute at landing, something I don't think any jetliner would use nowadays given the complex procedure to arm those things up.
Can't resist




Incidentally, rt23456p, welcome to our little discussion here. Some good questions there, will keep us going for a while
WHBM is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 8:31 am
  #26257  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by WHBM
Can't resist




Incidentally, rt23456p, welcome to our little discussion here. Some good questions there, will keep us going for a while
Wondering how on earth can these planes cut them off and somehow fold them back in a timely manner? On do they don't cut them off even when the plane is <30km/h?
PES_B1 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 8:34 am
  #26258  
Moderator, OneWorld
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: SEA
Programs: RAA RIP; AA ExEXP
Posts: 11,870
Originally Posted by WHBM
Bonus question : What was the first "western" schedule to operate right across the Soviet Union ? Airline, type and routing ?
Not sure if I understand the question correctly, but I'll throw out SAS' DC-8S services that stopped in Moscow and Tashkent en route to various Asian cities, e.g. CPH-TAS-BKK, CPH-MOW-TYO, etc.

In 1974 I had a memorable and headache-producing night in the company of several SAS cabin crew people in Tashkent at the hotel they used for layovers, fueled by cheap Uzbek champagne. Oy. God, they were all gorgeous.
rt23456p likes this.
Gardyloo is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 9:26 am
  #26259  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: FB Silver going for Gold
Posts: 21,874
Originally Posted by rt23456p
4. How many variants of 777 did SQ operate? (Hint: Not SQ designated variant, but delivered variants )
Everyone except the -200LR/77L so 4?

5. Name the most popular airport in Thailand that TG(including WE) doesn't fly to?
USM (and THS too).

8. Where did CX fly to SIN excluding HKG pre-pandemic?
)?
At least BKK and possibly CGK as well. Interesting that the long-standing HKG-BKK-SIN route operated to at least 2 airports in each, as would (IIRC) the HKG-SIN_JKT/CGK route.
YVR Cockroach is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 9:40 am
  #26260  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,502
Originally Posted by rt23456p
Wondering how on earth can these planes cut them off and somehow fold them back in a timely manner? On do they don't cut them off even when the plane is <30km/h?
We have covered these before, in the dim and distant past, but basically, dependent on wind force and direction, either it was released (there was a cable release from the flight deck), and the ground crew, standing by for the landing at runway exit, then pursued it in a truck to catch it, or it was dragged over to the ramp, where it was recovered and detached whilst stationary. They are fairly heavy duty canvas, of course. Air France used to have a spare packed parachute in the hold which could be substituted for the return flight, and they would be both repacked back at base; there were also packed spares in the stores at various outstations, but the flight engineer of the Caravelle, at least, also needed to be a certified packer, just in case.

When United did the deal for the 20 Caravelles the FAA said 'No way' for this to happen at US airports (plus some other elements), so the aircraft, which had worked through the Caravelle III and 6N, was re-engineered by Rolls-Royce on the Avon turbojets to have engine reversers instead, hence the Caravelle 6R for United (and others). R for Reversers. Curiously not everyone followed suit; Air France continued with the Caravelle III spec to their last purchase quite some years later.
WHBM is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 9:48 am
  #26261  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach
Everyone except the -200LR/77L so 4?



USM (and THS too).



At least BKK and possibly CGK as well. Interesting that the long-standing HKG-BKK-SIN route operated to at least 2 airports in each, as would (IIRC) the HKG-SIN_JKT/CGK route.
SQ didn't have any 777-200 from Boeing, all of their designated 772s were 772ERs that they use a special chip to limit the max power of the engine, thus reducing max takeoff weight and max range.


Correct for USM, because PG owned that airport and more or less runs a monopoly on it.

Correct for BKK, I remember the sub-400 USD SIN-BKK in J on A359, too sad I didn't have a chance to fly it, I was literally writing plans to my parent about flying the route and visiting Bangkok(Obviously the flying CX 359 in J is more of a priority over visiting BKK)
PES_B1 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 10:06 am
  #26262  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,502
Originally Posted by Gardyloo
Not sure if I understand the question correctly, but I'll throw out SAS' DC-8S services that stopped in Moscow and Tashkent en route to various Asian cities, e.g. CPH-TAS-BKK, CPH-MOW-TYO, etc.

In 1974 I had a memorable and headache-producing night in the company of several SAS cabin crew people in Tashkent at the hotel they used for layovers, fueled by cheap Uzbek champagne. Oy. God, they were all gorgeous.
Indeed, it was SAS who were the pioneer, with DC8s (series 50 at first) on Copenhagen-Tashkent-Bangkok, the first trans-Soviet flights. They had to take a Soviet navigator and interpreter on both legs. Tashkent, capital of Uzbekistan nowadays, very much Far-from-the-Madding-Crowd Soviet Union then, was a notably obscure waypoint for the 1960s. I think their diversion alternate was on to Islamabad in Pakistan. Thai International in the late 1960s was very supported by SAS, with minority shareholding and supply of the majority of their jets and crews. Even nowadays, Scandinavian tourists in Thai resorts can seem to outnumber others.

sk67-01.jpg (9801201) (timetableimages.com)

If Uzbek champagne is like other old Soviet (and modern Russian) "Champanska", stereotypically from Crimea, it may be cheap but is not poor quality at all, and gives the French production from Reims a distinctly good run for its money. Shall I say I actually prefer it !

CAAC did what everyone else did between Asia and western Europe, and routed over India and the Middle East, not having the special procedures to cross the Soviet Union other than flights actually to Moscow.

Last edited by WHBM; Aug 9, 2022 at 10:19 am
WHBM is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 10:12 am
  #26263  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: PDX
Programs: AS DL
Posts: 9,038
Originally Posted by rt23456p
2. Name all of the fifth-freedom services between HKG and BKK pre-pandemic?

10. The shortest first class service ex-SIN(including former routes)?
2. Likely, it is mostly Middle Eastern carriers.

Egyptair, Emirates, Royal Jordanian, Ethiopian

10. MKZ Malacca airport
Toshbaf is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 10:16 am
  #26264  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Programs: AA
Posts: 14,907
Just want to say thanks for the interesting info about SHV. Many of the trips I took when I was a young child were to SHV, shortly after the time period discussed above.
wrp96 is offline  
Old Aug 9, 2022, 10:25 am
  #26265  
formerly rt23456p
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,211
Originally Posted by Toshbaf
2. Likely, it is mostly Middle Eastern carriers.

Egyptair, Emirates, Royal Jordanian, Ethiopian

10. MKZ Malacca airport
2. There is also KQ, they flew 787 between both BKK-CAN and BKK-HKG at the same time, also, according to this webpage: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...lines-network/ , there is also SQ between BKK-HKG
For 10, I knew there was KUL, but didn't know that MKZ also have F service.

Last edited by PES_B1; Aug 9, 2022 at 10:37 am Reason: Addition of materials
PES_B1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.