Multiple Citizenship
Oct 22, 2011, 7:13 pm
#106
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tb
Oct 22, 2011, 7:17 pm
#107
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Oct 22, 2011, 8:19 pm
#108
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Rather than relying upon government websites that communicate with lay people, much better to rely upon the law and disseminated regulations for the many capable of understanding such:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...90aRCRD&CH=act [INA Title 3 Chapter 1]
http://law.justia.com/codes/us/title8/8usc1401.html
I am not changing the goal posts, so I don't understand the frustration.
For current births:
1. A US father married to a non-US mother is not required to have lived in the US before the age of 18 years in order to qualify to relay US citizenship to a child born to him outside of the US.
2. US father married to a US mother situations also do not require either US parent to have physical presence in the US before the age of 18 years in order to qualify to relay US citizenship to a child born abroad to such parents under wedlock.
Other conditions may of course apply; however, for a married couple where at least one of the parents of the child born under wedlock is a US citizen, there is no condition that the US citizen(s) must have lived in the US before the age of 18 years in order to relay US citizenship at birth to the child born abroad.
Any suggestion that a US father must have lived in the US prior to the age of 18 years in order to relay US citizenship to his child born under wedlock to a non-US mother is to be categorized as erroneous communication. Simple as that. The example I provided above is a clear-cut example -- no loophole about it -- of how a US father need not have lived even a year in the US before the age of 18 in order to relay US citizenship to a child born under wedlock of the US citizen father to a non-US mother.
When it comes to recognizing US citizenship status of a child born abroad currently to one (or more) US citizen parent, there is no US physical presence requirement of the US parent(s) that requires the US citizen parent(s) to have lived in the US prior to the age of 18 years.
I do know this topic better than probably even most attorneys currently in the employ of the State Department. I'll leave it at that, because otherwise someone may end up wanting my head -- even as the reason for my familiarity with the matter probably no longer matters given DOJ OLC and WH OLC determinations have rendered, at least in part, irrelevant the utility of attempted invalidation of US citizenship status previously recognized (whether recognized in error or not).
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...90aRCRD&CH=act [INA Title 3 Chapter 1]
http://law.justia.com/codes/us/title8/8usc1401.html
GU, you really keep changhing the goal posts here, and quite frankly speaking it is frustrating.
We are not talking about childred born out of wedlock, we are not talking about US government employees of any flavour who are assigned outside the United States, nor anyother extenuating circumstances.
The general regs are pretty black and white and taken from the DoS website linked above:
"A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship."
This was the rule ealrlier this year, this was the rule last year, the year before that, the decade before that and in fact the decade before that. You keep stating "FATHER" however it applies to EITHER US CITIZEN PARENT, as I can say for sure not just by having spoken with DoS personnel, but knowing two different US citizen mothers married to foreigners who having had their children abroad were UNABLE to get their kids passports for quite some time due to the difficulty in getting any documentation stating that they had lived in the US for the required times (one was a classic, the school burnt down thinga nd both parents were deceased, the other was an army brat who had lived in so many places and attended so many schools that it took some time to gather the documentation). Not to mention the fact that I had to personally go through the process in recent years. I would conservatively say that I have further known at least 100 couples who have had to submit such documents over the last decade or so, and that while often a formality must be done and must satisfy the Vice Consul or whomever with these documents, of these 80 were US father, 20 were US mother.
I am not doubting the example that you have stated, there are a dozen loopholes to the rules that can be exploited through even non-governmental employment if the papers are done in the right way, or even the employment of the US citizen parent or even spouse in subsequent years (among other things). However the law is as I stated above and that IS what 99% of people in such situations have to submit and if they don't the kid does not get it.
The solution of course is for anyone who does not meet the requirement and who marreis a non US citizen to just make sure the kid is born in the US to avoid any such troubles/hassles in the future as this whole thing was brought in at the time of the Rodino Act to stop generations of US citizens multiplying abroad with no connection to the US (primarily from Mexico).
We are not talking about childred born out of wedlock, we are not talking about US government employees of any flavour who are assigned outside the United States, nor anyother extenuating circumstances.
The general regs are pretty black and white and taken from the DoS website linked above:
"A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship."
This was the rule ealrlier this year, this was the rule last year, the year before that, the decade before that and in fact the decade before that. You keep stating "FATHER" however it applies to EITHER US CITIZEN PARENT, as I can say for sure not just by having spoken with DoS personnel, but knowing two different US citizen mothers married to foreigners who having had their children abroad were UNABLE to get their kids passports for quite some time due to the difficulty in getting any documentation stating that they had lived in the US for the required times (one was a classic, the school burnt down thinga nd both parents were deceased, the other was an army brat who had lived in so many places and attended so many schools that it took some time to gather the documentation). Not to mention the fact that I had to personally go through the process in recent years. I would conservatively say that I have further known at least 100 couples who have had to submit such documents over the last decade or so, and that while often a formality must be done and must satisfy the Vice Consul or whomever with these documents, of these 80 were US father, 20 were US mother.
I am not doubting the example that you have stated, there are a dozen loopholes to the rules that can be exploited through even non-governmental employment if the papers are done in the right way, or even the employment of the US citizen parent or even spouse in subsequent years (among other things). However the law is as I stated above and that IS what 99% of people in such situations have to submit and if they don't the kid does not get it.
The solution of course is for anyone who does not meet the requirement and who marreis a non US citizen to just make sure the kid is born in the US to avoid any such troubles/hassles in the future as this whole thing was brought in at the time of the Rodino Act to stop generations of US citizens multiplying abroad with no connection to the US (primarily from Mexico).
For current births:
1. A US father married to a non-US mother is not required to have lived in the US before the age of 18 years in order to qualify to relay US citizenship to a child born to him outside of the US.
2. US father married to a US mother situations also do not require either US parent to have physical presence in the US before the age of 18 years in order to qualify to relay US citizenship to a child born abroad to such parents under wedlock.
Other conditions may of course apply; however, for a married couple where at least one of the parents of the child born under wedlock is a US citizen, there is no condition that the US citizen(s) must have lived in the US before the age of 18 years in order to relay US citizenship at birth to the child born abroad.
Any suggestion that a US father must have lived in the US prior to the age of 18 years in order to relay US citizenship to his child born under wedlock to a non-US mother is to be categorized as erroneous communication. Simple as that. The example I provided above is a clear-cut example -- no loophole about it -- of how a US father need not have lived even a year in the US before the age of 18 in order to relay US citizenship to a child born under wedlock of the US citizen father to a non-US mother.
When it comes to recognizing US citizenship status of a child born abroad currently to one (or more) US citizen parent, there is no US physical presence requirement of the US parent(s) that requires the US citizen parent(s) to have lived in the US prior to the age of 18 years.
I do know this topic better than probably even most attorneys currently in the employ of the State Department. I'll leave it at that, because otherwise someone may end up wanting my head -- even as the reason for my familiarity with the matter probably no longer matters given DOJ OLC and WH OLC determinations have rendered, at least in part, irrelevant the utility of attempted invalidation of US citizenship status previously recognized (whether recognized in error or not).
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 22, 2011 at 9:51 pm
Oct 22, 2011, 9:09 pm
#109
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A child born outside of the United States, or its outlying possessions, to two married U.S. citizen parents is entitled to U.S. citizenship provided that one of the parents has been resident in the United States, or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of the child. (No specific period of time is required.)
If the child was born on, or after December 24, 1952 to an unwed U.S. citizen mother, the mother must have been physically present within the borders of the U.S., or its outlying possessions, for one continuous year prior to the child's birth, with no interruptions allowed.
In the case of a US mother's genetic child currently born outside of wedlock at the time of the child's birth, one year of uninterrupted US physical presence even only as an adult would still entitle the US mother to relay citizenship at birth to her child.
To suggest whether or not being out of wedlock is the easier way for a US mother to relay US citizenship to the child at time of birth abroad, well that would require knowing more about the US mother's history. Talk about a potential marriage penalty.
The easiest (but not necessarily cheapest) way is sometimes to just do as hfly suggests: give birth in the US. [However, given fraud or error possibilities when it comes to determinations and/or documentation, there's no guarantee that a child recognized as a US citizen as a product of birth conditions is going to have their US citizenship status better secured by being born in the US than being born abroad.]Perhaps some who are intimately aware of the laws in this arena (of relaying US citizenship to a child born abroad) will understand why I said the handling of matters in this area is littered with a history of government displays of sex bias, marital status bias and even financial status bias. And that's even when only referring to forms of bias that is institutionalized under law.
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 22, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Oct 23, 2011, 2:02 am
#110
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GU, both of the sites you mention state: (g) exactly what I said. (e) however says 1 year, so I agree that at this level, there does seem to be a misconnect. OTOH there is still a residency requirement, and there is no mention of father vs. mother.
Oct 23, 2011, 5:17 am
#111
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Divorcing for reasons of convenience while still being a couple of sorts? That is well possible. Either way, such a path might not be useful if she doesn't have documented evidence of appropriate US physical presence to the extent required. [Unlikely, but possible.]
In the case of a US mother's genetic child currently born outside of wedlock at the time of the child's birth, one year of uninterrupted US physical presence even only as an adult would still entitle the US mother to relay citizenship at birth to her child.
To suggest whether or not being out of wedlock is the easier way for a US mother to relay US citizenship to the child at time of birth abroad, well that would require knowing more about the US mother's history. Talk about a potential marriage penalty.
In the case of a US mother's genetic child currently born outside of wedlock at the time of the child's birth, one year of uninterrupted US physical presence even only as an adult would still entitle the US mother to relay citizenship at birth to her child.
To suggest whether or not being out of wedlock is the easier way for a US mother to relay US citizenship to the child at time of birth abroad, well that would require knowing more about the US mother's history. Talk about a potential marriage penalty.
tb
Oct 23, 2011, 6:47 am
#112
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.... and after they have sufficient information about your wife's history, about her relationship to the presented child and about the conditions of marital status and/or the other parent at the time of the presented child's birth, you'll get a determination.
Unfortunately, the US -- unlike some other countries -- does not hold as inviolable administrative decisions in favor of a person under conditions which involve no fraud and which involve no submission of false misinformation on the part of the individual receiving a favorable decision on his/her behalf (or, perhaps more pointedly, on behalf of his/her progeny). So if a consular official makes an error, even in favor of the child, someone else, even decades later, can currently rescind the US citizenship status recognized by State Department employees at a US Embassy/Consulate and/or in the US.
I kid you not, but this can be a nasty joke -- and it's actually no joke whatsoever -- even for those persons who were administratively determined to be US citizens by US Embassy personnel. As errors in facts and judgments committed by a State Department employee are a possibility, a conscientious US citizen parent wanting to secure their child's US citizenship rights should secure adequate documentation about themselves in the event of a challenge even years after a positive determination of US citizenship status of a child born abroad, which could even be years after the death of the US citizen parent(s). And they may even be better off not relying upon government website-posted generalizations since these kind of things do happen.
There is no pre-18 years of age US residency requirement of any married parent of a child currently born abroad to at least one US citizen parent.
There seemed to be some suggestion that there is currently such a pre-18 years of age requirement, and that is what I was noting does not exist for current births.
If you review (e), you too may note that it is not a situation relevant to this matter, as that is for births in outlying US possessions, which is why I didn't even focus upon that in particular when making any of my prior comments in this thread. I am pointing toward a misconnect when it comes to information about births beyond the US/US possessions, primarily the misconnect about any US physical presence requirement as relates to the age of the US citizen parent(s). Those who are currently required to have been physically present in the US for any period can meet that condition using US physical presence even only for their adult years; in other words, there is no current requirement for any US physical presence in the US be prior to the US citizen parent(s) turning 18 years of age.
While it is not in the items I linked above, there are distinctions for handling of children born to one US citizen parent and one non-US parent that relies upon whether or not the US parent is a mother or a father.
Unfortunately, the US -- unlike some other countries -- does not hold as inviolable administrative decisions in favor of a person under conditions which involve no fraud and which involve no submission of false misinformation on the part of the individual receiving a favorable decision on his/her behalf (or, perhaps more pointedly, on behalf of his/her progeny). So if a consular official makes an error, even in favor of the child, someone else, even decades later, can currently rescind the US citizenship status recognized by State Department employees at a US Embassy/Consulate and/or in the US.
I kid you not, but this can be a nasty joke -- and it's actually no joke whatsoever -- even for those persons who were administratively determined to be US citizens by US Embassy personnel. As errors in facts and judgments committed by a State Department employee are a possibility, a conscientious US citizen parent wanting to secure their child's US citizenship rights should secure adequate documentation about themselves in the event of a challenge even years after a positive determination of US citizenship status of a child born abroad, which could even be years after the death of the US citizen parent(s). And they may even be better off not relying upon government website-posted generalizations since these kind of things do happen.
There seemed to be some suggestion that there is currently such a pre-18 years of age requirement, and that is what I was noting does not exist for current births.
If you review (e), you too may note that it is not a situation relevant to this matter, as that is for births in outlying US possessions, which is why I didn't even focus upon that in particular when making any of my prior comments in this thread. I am pointing toward a misconnect when it comes to information about births beyond the US/US possessions, primarily the misconnect about any US physical presence requirement as relates to the age of the US citizen parent(s). Those who are currently required to have been physically present in the US for any period can meet that condition using US physical presence even only for their adult years; in other words, there is no current requirement for any US physical presence in the US be prior to the US citizen parent(s) turning 18 years of age.
While it is not in the items I linked above, there are distinctions for handling of children born to one US citizen parent and one non-US parent that relies upon whether or not the US parent is a mother or a father.
Oct 23, 2011, 11:33 am
#113
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Going a bit OT: anyone know which country's citizens enjoy visa free access to the most destinations? Gutt feeling is that it's probably one of the EU countries. France/UK with all those former colonies?
Oct 23, 2011, 1:08 pm
#114
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It also helps if the country issuing your passport did well in the last World Cup. That seems to generate all kinds of sympathies.
Going a bit OT: anyone know which country's citizens enjoy visa free access to the most destinations? Gutt feeling is that it's probably one of the EU countries. France/UK with all those former colonies?
Going a bit OT: anyone know which country's citizens enjoy visa free access to the most destinations? Gutt feeling is that it's probably one of the EU countries. France/UK with all those former colonies?
Oct 23, 2011, 4:00 pm
#115
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I am not sure how up to date this is from Henley and Partners but it looks like it might be the British Passport.
Oct 23, 2011, 4:14 pm
#116
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FWIW and to be slightly pedantic, most citizens of most countries do not have the right to travel visa free to most other countries; rather, they are able to apply for a visa upon arrival which in practice is rarely ever refused. So, for instance, it is quite easy for UK passportholders to enter Kenya by paying $50 at the airport in Nairobi and applying for a visa on the spot, but a visa is still required. There are actually very few countries (mainly within the EU) that most UK passportholders can visit truly on a visa-free basis.
Oct 24, 2011, 1:50 am
#117
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I am dual Norwegian and British (born to British mother and Norwegian father), but I only carry a Norwegian passport though. I am born after 1983 which means I can obtain a British passport anyway, but my mother nevertheless activily registered me and my brother at the British embassy in Oslo..
Oct 24, 2011, 3:28 am
#118
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Oct 24, 2011, 7:01 am
#119
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Dutch newspapers reported two years ago that the Netherlands (16.5 million inhabitants) has 1.1 million people with passports from two different countries, 15,750 with passports from 3 different countries and 141 with passports from 4 different countries.
Oct 24, 2011, 7:03 am
#120
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