fozz

+1 Thanks to EF.

KVS

We generally do not comment on competitors' products/services, as we find such tactics to be in a rather bad taste.

From http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_PR:
Nevertheless, we understand that some companies may feel that the only way they can make their product appear better is by launching propaganda campaigns against the competitor's products, and will address the present one below:

As was mentioned on numerous occasions previously, the KVS Tool does not do "screen-scraping", and never did.

P.S. Would you care to share which one of your "direct" GDS connections the U* award/upgrade data originally came from?

Could you please demonstrate how would an EF user select a different GDS or POS option when doing an Availability query (where it actually matters)?

We are not aware of any graphical web browser in the world, which can be launched as fast as the native KVS Tool application, not to mention the time it takes to log-in:
That would have been a convincing argument, if the KVS Tool members were not good at math :Not to mention that many KVS Tool members could not live without it for a day, let alone for a month .


Actually, the PNR Manager supports both GDS PNRs as well as 18+ airline directly.As the saying goes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery .

Except that you cannot see any award or upgrade inventory for BA or CX or SQ (and many more, as listed above) on EF, while the KVS Tool members continue to enjoy their awards on these premium carriers, which they found via the KVS Tool.

ExpertFlyer Voice

Last night, after I wrote my last post, I was actually worried that I might have been too harsh. Thanks for taking care of that.

To address your points:

* PR - We actually spend a lot of effort on positive PR for ExpertFlyer. Maybe you've read some of these: http://www.expertflyer.com/expertflyer-news

BTW, we don't doctor our PR posts to remove mention of any competing service. Yes, we noticed that, classy. (Original video: http://bit.ly/dxiNqz Doctored one: http://bit.ly/akQMWv)

* "the KVS Tool does not do "screen-scraping", and never did." Your own User Agreement says otherwise:
Taking data from websites and using it in your application is the definition of screen scraping. Especially if they're not your websites.

* EF handles availability POS by choosing a GDS ahead of time. We use US based ones and a UK based one. One of the things we would like to do is allow users to change that on the fly. Based on the information on your website, your users also have 2 choices, USA or Japan.

* "Except that you cannot see any award or upgrade inventory for BA or CX or SQ"
Do you not know what the word OR means? As I previously said: "So by using ExpertFlyer you can see either award/upgrade inventory or regular inventory farther ahead..."

Say what you want, but none of your regular availability or Alliance award availability methods show anything beyond 331 days. Only UA, CX, and M&M can do that, and for those, users can get the same information on those websites directly, no tool required.

The other thing you can't do with KVS is specify any connecting cities. EF allows you to specify up to 2. Basics first.

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Now, you want to talk about price? Ok. First, when you take what isn't yours and don't pay for it, the cost is naturally $0. ExpertFlyer has fixed costs (running the business, servers, payroll, etc) and variable costs (GDS data). KVS doesn't pay for data, the websites it screen scrapes from do. It's not surprising that a business that doesn't have to pay any incremental costs for each unit sold can undercut their competition. It was different back when KVS was free, but that isn't the case anymore.

ExpertFlyer hasn't raised prices since our January 2005 launch. KVS on the other hand, recently eliminated it's Light version (which costed less). You used the loss of the ITN availability methods to charge your customers more, even though you don't pay for any of the GDS data regardless of method.

So who is paying for the GDS data? (Airline data is not free) Well that's the airlines and, more importantly, independent travel agents that operate the websites listed in my last post. We can debate feature sets all day long, but here's the real problem.

For example, as I previously mentioned the Sabre DotRes fares method screen scrapes from this website: https://ww3.dotres.com/meridia?posid=7Y5A Who are they? They are United Fairfax Travel, a brick-and-mortar travel agency in Fairfax Virginia. Say hi: http://www.ufxtravel.com/default.asp?sid=9068&pid=11545

Now as many of you know, travel agencies have been squeezed by the airlines in the last 5-10 years, it's not easy for them to stay in business these days. What doesn't make it any easier is the amount they have to spend in additional data costs because the KVS tool screen scrapes from their booking website.

How much? Using last months ExpertFlyer Fare Information transactions as a guide, and knowing how much fare and fare rules queries on Sabre cost, we calculate that KVS takes about $7,000 a year from their bottom line. That's real money, money that they now don't have to pay employees, pay bills, expand their business, etc. Normally travel agencies aren't charged for data as long as there are bookings after the searches (what's called a look to book ratio) however since the KVS tool doesn't give any type of payment, attribution, or link to their website so that maybe they can have a chance to get a booking or two out of it, it's all cost for them. Yes you can get the data by going to their website directly as well, but at least then they have a chance to get a booking from it. Maybe you should send them a thank you note, this isn't a faceless airline, I'm sure they will read it.

So you want to talk about what's in "bad taste"? How about you thinking it's ok to keep 100% of your revenues while sticking random unsuspecting travel agencies with the bill for the data that you take from their websites without them even knowing. Maybe you can find a term for that on Wikipedia too.

fozz and bhatnasx, you're welcome.

KVS

The issue is not positive PR, it's the negative PR.

This cannot be addressed without a specific post reference.

No, all it says is that the KVS Tool is "a specialized web browser".

As a web browser, the KVS Tool does neither "take data", nor "use it" in the screen-scraping sense.

From http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/User_agent:
And we also know what the term "misleading" means.

If they are masochists, perhaps. KVS Tool members tend to feel differently:
We see no merit in engaging in these continued attempts at black PR, or in addressing the factual and conceptual inaccuracies, which are just too numerous to list.

More importantly, these [mostly non-existing] issues are well-beyond the subject matter of this thread and we would like to keep it on-topic.

metallim

all jargon aside, it's irrelevant how many free sites one could go to to get the information that kvs offers. I gladly pay the $5 a month to not have to spend hours upon hours hours of extra time gathering the information from numerous sites. some of us have lives outside of checking for award availability.

sbm12

False.
I call BS. Sorry, but when your view of the world is that you're a "specialized web browser" that takes data from one source, completely reformats it and presents it in a completely different layout just so you can claim to be a "user agent" that's actually rather ridiculous. Read that post on what a User Agent specifies and you'll see that it generally identifies folks who actually write a specific browser, not just folks who reuse the one built in to the operating system to access a collection of random other sites.

The reality is that your application launches an instance of IE to collect the data from the remote web server and then reformats it and displays it to your customers. You're not a user agent. You've got an app that reads data off other sites and formats it as though it is your own.

A more relevant wiki article would be the one on Web Scraping which includes nuggets such as this gem:

If you're really going to deny that your app is doing exactly this then you're really missing out on that river in Egypt.

I'm not saying that some folks won't find value in the tools that you offer. But to claim that you're not simply repackaging data that other folks are paying for and taking 100% of the profit for all the "donations" you solicit is, at best, disingenuous.

Xyzzy

This whole debate is rather amusing, particularly this part:Call it any fancy name you want, but what it's doing is exactly the same as screen scraping. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck

seanthepilot

KVS: still need application on every computer?
I used KVS years ago and was completely satisfied.... until I left home and started travelling. At that point, you had to have KVS downloaded onto every computer that you wanted to use it from.

This meant that I couldn't access it from a hotel lounge, a friend's, or any internet cafe's terminals. I don't know if this has changed since then, or not.

Bottom line is that I need to access the data from ANY COMPUTER. If KVS offers/offered its product from a web browser like firefox & mobile phone's, then it would again be functional FOR MY NEEDS.

Expert Flyer is good, but lack of loyalty bonus tones down my excitement.
I've now used Expert Flyer for yeeeeears. It's good. Meets my needs most of the time (the TG availability is often wrong).

But EF is too expensive. I don't mean that $10 a month is terribly high. My feeling is that they should give their continuous clients a bit of a break. After 5+ years of continuous use, a loyal FT or a longterm prepaid rate would help the pinch. We've done good by them, and they've done good by us. If they're now in a better position than before, why not help the customers that stuck with them?

welltravelled88

Hmmm... I have always used http://www.flyaow.com/classamex.htm which is now discontinued. But whe I go to that page, I am invited to join KVS. If KVS does that (and apparently much more), then it seems a good option to me.

But my understanding is that the old tool came directly from Amadeus. No ? And what about KVS ?

Can either KVS or ExpertFlyer, or something else, offer me the ability to actually have Amadeus more or less ? Like I type AN22SEPZRHDXB/ALX and I get the result ? There must be someone out there offering read-only Amadeus access, no ?

Please advise.

KVS

We just launched the KVS Tool Mobile Companion, which can be used for checking Availability on any web-enabled device when you are on-the-go (incl. iPhone, BlackBerry and Android) -- please see http://www.KVSTool.com/Mobile-Companion-Info.php for more info and screenshots.

KVS

It sure does!

That Amadeus command becomesin the KVS Tool.

Keyser

delete....

ExpertFlyer Voice

If you sign up for a year of ExpertFlyer service you only pay for 10 months ($8.33/mo).

We do. Not only have our prices not increased once since our launch in 2005, even in the face of increased costs, but we have continually added new features to the service at that same price point. Some of those features, like Flight & Seat Alerts, come at a significant cost to us since each GDS query has a cost associated to it, however we feel it's good business to return value to our subscribers who invest in us.


ExpertFlyer has direct access to multiple GDSs. It comes at a cost, but we believe it's worth it as it allows us to offer unique services and data. The search functions of ExpertFlyer use those same exact commands that you are referring to, however giving direct access to the GDS commands isn't something that we want to do, or that the GDSs would even allow us to do.

TravellingMan

Thanks. Have been looking around for couple of months now for something like this.

sbm12

Or just get the same information for free from someone who isn't so arrogant as to suggest that rebranding data from another site is somehow generating real content on their own. But maybe I'm biased based on the horrible interactions I've had with KVS in the past.

It really depends on which features/functions you're looking for.