IBobi

FF5 is not doing anybody any favors -- see this thread about aa.com not working with it:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/techn...t-work-me.html

ftnoob

Now I have experienced the intermittent behaviour. The first time was the first thread I tried to read today. That thread had been dormant since March, and the new-post URL correctly redirected. I wondered whether the problem had been fixed, but discovered it was not when I went on to read another thread (already opened in a different tab).

I then guessed: the fact that a new post on an older thread worked correctly could be an important clue...but when I pulled up this thread to report that tidbit, the new-post URL worked correctly here!

BTW, because FF 5 is making a point of noting it is the first browser to support "do not track" across all platforms, my first guess had been that the problem is related to the DNT header. That option is not enabled by default, however, and it already existed in FF 4, so that guess is probably wrong also.

IAkH

Just to add another datapoint, I have had the same issue for the last 2 weeks. First in FF4 and still after updating to FF5 no Windows 7

Global_Hi_Flyer

FOr me, it was affecting FF4 and continued after moving to 5.

No change as of today, and even this thread is having the problem.

squeeler

The disease is even affecting the BA Forum!

ma91pmh

so is anything being done about this? it is quite annoying

baliktad

I know IBobi is only the messenger, but IB's stance on this has been to blame it on anyone but FT from the start. First it was IE9, now it's FF5. There has never been any workaround offered or genuine update confirming a specific problem with a particular configuration or setting. There has been no bug filed with any browser manufacturers or any other visible action taken by IB. We are coming up on 3 months for this issue with no realistic resolution or even timeframe for one.

sc flier

Could someone provide a technical explanation about how the system is supposed to keep track of the last viewed posts so that maybe some users here might get some ideas about how to address it on the browser side?

baliktad

Last viewed post is tracked entirely server-side (ie, not in the browser). When you visit a page, an entry is made in a database that indicates the thread and presumably the last post or time viewed. Later when you visit the thread again, the server looks up the last viewed post in that thread and redirects the browser to the first new post.

There is little, if anything, the browser contributes to this process other than maintaining and presenting your identity to the server via a cookie. The fact that new threads show up in "My Flyertalk" when there are new posts means that FT is well aware of the last post you read and what the new post should be. But the new post redirection is failing.

The symptoms would seem to indicate that there is something server-side that is failing to redirect properly. Without any knowledge of FT's architecture, I would guess that a front end caching server somewhere is failing to keep up with new writes, but only the site engineers are in a position to confirm or rectify the issue.

IBobi

Hi all,

We're going to take another look at this this morning and report in the thread. The scope of this issue seems to have dramatically increased, especially with FF5's release. Hope to have an update today and have Dick respond.

I will keep you posted; thank you for being patient and reporting specifics for us to work with.

Paul

ma91pmh

Thanks Paul

FWIW I have to confess it seems to be working ok for me using Safari

However on Firefox (and I am only using FF3.6) the issue is manifesting, as it is on IE9

sc flier

That was exactly the way that I figured that it works, and that's why I'm skeptical about it all being entirely related to the recent changes in browser versions unless the browsers are caching the redirects.

But something is getting written to the database successfully because the threads don't show up in My FlyerTalk again until there's a new post. It's tracking whether or not I've read a thread, but once a new post shows up, then it's failing to direct us to the correct new starting point.

Today, I keep getting reminded of last night's post pointing out that Caroline is not much of a coke head every time I check the new posts in this thread...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/...l#post16636288

And maybe that's important. Is the server caching the time for the redirects? So when I return, I'm redirected to the cached value? But then sometimes, the server's cache gets cleared?

ftnoob

Nothing can be done to fix the problem on the browser side, although there is one thing (see below) that can be done to slightly reduce the hassle it causes.

Most of what you wrote in your later post sounds like you have a decent grasp on it, but I'll spell out some details just in case as well as for others still learning about the issue.

(The original formatting from above perhaps made it difficult for non-techs to follow, so let me add some background and attempt some reformatting.)

Understand that on the thread listing pages, the URL attached to the Go to first new post icon () is what for non-technical consumption I refer to as a "magic url." I call it that because there is no actual page at the location flyertalk.com/..../....-new-post.html, and for someone who doesn't understand what happens behinds the scenes, it feels like magic: the exact same URL can display different content to everyone with a different last read post for the thread.

When you attempt to retrieve a -new-post.html URL, the server uses data stored in your cookies to figure out who you are, then looks in the database for your "last read post" value for the thread in question. It also has to look up your posts-per-page setting (from the database or another cookie) to calculate on which page your first unread post should appear. When the server has all the variables it needs from the database (and/or cookies), it builds the redirect URL, and tells the browser to display the redirected location instead of the URL it requested.

One way you can confirm that this is going on is to change the Firefox network.http.redirection-limit value on your about:config page. The default value is 20:If you set the value to zero and attempt to retrieve one of the "magic" -new-post.html URLs, the redirect process will be shut down by Firefox and you will see this (somewhat misleading) message:If you try it, be sure to set the value back to 20 after your experiment.


Now here are the reformatted examples from an earlier post:

Code:

[1] http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rr/1229903-southwest-early-bird-boarding-sham-new-post.html
[2] http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rr/1229903-southwest-early-bird-boarding-sham.html#post16620273
[3] http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rr/1229903-southwest-early-bird-boarding-sham.html#post16623396

For those who aren't already aware, the #post... part of the URL instructs the browser to scroll to a particular "anchor" in the page, rather than just go to the top of the page.

This is important to note:Conclusion #1: The server has the correct information in the database!

It is also important to note, however, that if you are not currently viewing the page with your first unread post, the View First Unread link is not a real URL, it is simply the -new-post.html "magic" URL.

Conclusion #2: We can slightly reduce the hassle of this bug by setting our posts-per-page to the max (40, IIRC). Then if instead of clicking the first unread link from the thread list page, we:we will end up at the right post. By setting the posts-per-page to 40 we reduce the number of mult-page threads as well as the number of times we end up on a page that is before or ofter the one that actually contains our first unread post. It does take two clicks instead of one, but it is far better than trying to find the first unread post be scanning the page, or adding yet another click to get to the right page after the first click failed. (If you want to occasionally try the "magic" URL to see if the problem has been fixed, you can always use ctrl-home to jump back to the top of the page to access the View First Unread link. (I don't like setting posts-per-page as high as 40, but it is the lesser of two evils while this problem exists.)

There is one point where you went astray, including an unreliable thread link toward the end (I removed the hot link so it can be easily read):

First off, no link like that would ever appear attached to the Go to first new post icon () on a listing of threads. On the forum page, only the Go to last post icon () links to that type of URL. You gave us the URL that the server is redirecting you to when you click the "magic" url. The link when you view the forum containing that thread should look like:On a tangent, it is important to know that the -39 part of the URL normally causes the link to fail for anyone whose posts-per-page setting causes Post 16636288 to appear on some other page. Don't attempt to share post-specific links using -pg.html style links on FT. In FT posts and PMs, wrap post tags around some text to link to a specific post:(Remove the extra space from the markup on the first line to create the hotlink in the second line. The link is dynamically generated from the markup every time the page is viewed, based on each person's posts-per-page setting.)

Impossible to say from our side, but we do know that the correct information is getting into the database in at least one place. It seems clear to me the problem has to be in the part of the code that builds the redirect URL for us. Whether due to caching or the data otherwise being stored in multiple places and not updated in all of them, we'll have to leave it to IB to figure out.

IBobi

Hi all,

We have begun a test that we're hoping will resolve this; please report any change in behavior (positive or, heaven forbid, negative) over the next hours/days.

Thanks!

Paul

IB-Dick

ftnoob's post is accurate, and I'd like to offer my thanks for writing it.

Just to add a little complexity to this, I want to make a note on how the system marks what you've read. Every time you view a thread, it marks in the database the timestamp of the last post on the page that you looked at. If you look at page 2 of a thread that has 4 pages, then it assumes that you've finished page 2 and will next time direct you to page 3. If you land on page 5 of a thread with 5 pages, but page 5 only has 2 posts on that page, when you return you will return to the third post of page 5 and update the record in the database with the new appropriate value. While this isn't always completely accurate, it does the best job that it can, and it's the most accurate method that the software offers to get users to the correct new post.

Now, if you think about a table that records every viewed thread by a logged in user, you might thing "Wow, that table has to be HUGE." Well, you'd be half-correct there. Since that data model isn't exactly scalable, the forum software makes some assumptions. The biggest assumption is that after a certain period of time, you've read every thread. This configurable setting was previously set to 10 days, but has since been changed to 5 days for an experiment. A scheduled task runs through the table where we keep track of the last read threads and removes all records for that are past that 5 day limit. When you open a thread, it assumes that any post that was made over 5 days ago was read. It checks the table to see if there is a record in there for the specified thread and if so, it directs you to where it assumes you left off. If there isn't a record in there, then it assumes that the first unread post is first post made since 5 days ago.

I can test this by going to a long thread that I've never been to. In this example, I'll use this thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/commu...-new-post.html
Notice that this is the 'magic' url to use ftnoob's term. Since I've never been to this thread, the first unread post would be post 1 on page 1. That's not the case, because it assumes that every post made before 5 days ago I've already had ample time to read. Instead, I get directed to here, http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/commu...l#post16627511 the 7th post on page 35. I got the 7th post because it's the earliest post in the 5 day window, since the previous post was made on the 22nd (6 days ago). Now, here's the tricky part... I just view the thread and was directed to the 7th post on page 35. I didn't read the full page, but the software doesn't know that. When I go to that magic link again, it assumes that I've read page 35, so it redirects me to last post of the page. If there had been a page 36, it would have directed me to the top of page 36. If then I went to the 'magic' url again, it would redirect me to page 37, you know... if there was one in this example. I should have picked a better one. Feel free to give this a shot yourself... Go to a forum that you don't usually frequent, find a 100 page thread that was started over 5 days ago but still has recent posts, and click on the last unread post button. You'll end up on the last post from 432,000 seconds ago (5 days ago). When you return to the magic -new-post.html page, you'll be semi-intelligently and predictably moved along the thread.

I've walked through the system a number of times since this was reported, and I haven't been able to find any flaws in the system mechanics. Is it funky in the way it works, making incorrect assumptions about what you have viewed and what you haven't? Yup. Can it drop you off, seemingly in the middle of nowhere, and make the system look horribly broken? Yup. Is there a better way? Not really.

We're continuing to replicate the problem. At first glace, it looks like the system is terribly broken. Upon further inspection and understanding of how the system is designed to work, we can't find anything that isn't functioning as designed. Since there is some chance that it's a matter of database scaling (which I don't believe), we turned the threshold for remembering posts from 10 to 5. If the problem is with the database not properly marking data or redirects not being sent accurately, this should help (since we've cut the database size literally in half). If the problem is that the software offers a confusing user experience, this will make it worse. The good news is that if this setting makes things worse, then we at least have a way to make things better. Instead of marking the threads read after 5 days (current setting) or 10 days (old setting), we can try setting this to 15 days and see if things are less confusing.


This isn't completely accurate. When you pasted the 'magic' url into FF 5, the database was updated to show that you've progressed along the thread. When you pasted the 'magic' url into FF 4, you got a later post because of the newly updated record in the db. If you had done these in reverse order, it would look like FF 4 is incorrect and FF 5 was broken.

Kinda. I can also exacerbate the problem, since now if I read the first 20 post of a thread and not the whole page, when I return it can dump me on page 2, causing me to miss 20 posts.