I wasn't; a Mod. says he gets lots of PM's from newbies but how many are because he's a Mod.? I am not a Mod. and get very few PM's asking general questions, feedback or advice from newbies.

IMHO, newbies can more readily separate the medium from the message then some might give them credit for and can understand after a short time that post counts are more to do with level or participation than overall travel knowledge.

That is why meaning is different from a strict reading.

It is so nice of you to interpret the meaning of this motion for everyone. Thank you for your participation, but I'll draw my own conclusions.

Other FlyerTalkers may also choose to interpret this matter for themselves.

Oh sorry, I forgot the obligatory this is my opinion only and other FTers and TBers may disagree and feel free to make up their own minds on this particular topic thank you for understanding.

This sort of action does generate some disenfanchisement feelings for me.

I know you keep discounting this as only a posts issue but yet that argument can hold weight from either side of the table. I fail to see how arguing it from the "removal of OMNI posts" side carries any more weight than from the "all posts should count equally" side.

Just more rhetoric...


I dont see the argument that we want OMNI treated differently than the rest of FT. In fact we are arguing that we would like OMNI treated exactly the same as the rest of FT (WRT to posts counting, post-padding, etc...)

OMNI is no different than any of the rest of FT other than it is a catch all for threads that dont relate directly to travel. That being said I'm still trying to grasp how the majority of postings in Travel Safety and Security (or the TSA bashing thread as I call it) have anything more to do with traveling than OMNI does.

I'm all for one standard that all threads in FT are judged on but by removing post counting from OMNI there is the creation of a double standard, which really causes me feelings of disenfranchisement.

Im not calling for OMNI to be allowed to go unchecked but am questioning why we are using a bomb to solve the problem when something more along the lines of a surgeons scalpel would more than fix the problem.

I have yet to see a single post where a member has used this as a reason for not wanting posts to count. Please post a link to back up your statememt.

You completely ducked what I said (something you enjoy--quotes out of context). So we'll try again:

What did you vote for in RE: "post count in OMNI" that you have now been disenfranchised of?

It's easy to dismiss your point when you can't even answer that question.

Now we are getting closer to reality.

Why do you assume disenfranchisement is limited to voting??

I "voted", in your modest post count thread, that OMNI posts should count. But FT is not a democracy. It's not even a state. Or a government, really. My "vote" doesn't matter in any meaningul sense unless it convinces someone in power to vote congruent to my wishes.

So you agree with me that a lot of the people that want to do away with OMNI post counts do so because they're jealous?

You know, I don't think that this is fair comment. You guys use big words for rhetoric effect to give the appearance of weightiness to your arguments. Surely it is right and proper to investigate those big claims of "freedom of expression" or "disenfranchisement" to see whether they are actually based on something or mere puff, rhetorical powder thrown into the eyes.
It is not enough to merely say "I feel dienfranchised". Either you are genuinely disenfranchised, in which case you have a valid point, or you are not genuinely disenfranchised, in which case the solution should be sought not in seeking an FT motion of some description but rather speaking about it with your analyst to find out why you have this feeling of disenfranchisement which corresponds to no genuine disenfranchisement.
So, in what way exactly are you and 'a large group of people' "disenfranchised? Clearly, you do not lose your rights to participate in any elections by having future omni posts not counted in your post count. So, you are not disenfranchised in the normal meaning of the word.
Are you disenfranchised in the figurative sense of having power and opportunities taken away from you? What exactly is it that you can no longer do now that you could do before? You can post in just about any forum as you could before, you can send and receive pms just as much as before, you can laugh cry, joke, argue with other FTers just as much as you could before. So what is it that you could do before and can no longer do now? Because if there is no such thing, you simply cannot say that you are being disenfranchised.

So, the only thing you could conceivably have lost the ability to do, at least in the future, is the possibility to flash a great big huge co....unt based on omni posts. Do you really want to call that disenfranchisement? Fair enough, but surely you cannot be surprised if others will feel like calling it something less grand and probably less flattering.

But hang on, even that you have not lost. Rejoice, and rejoice nroscoe too, you have not lost your ability to boast and/or feel proud about the size of your post count including omni posts. Yes, you can still do it: all you need to do is put it in your signature. OK, it will require a bit of work on your part. You will need to regularly compute how many posts you have had in OMNI and add that to your total. But, after all, if displaying your omni-inclusive post count is something which is really important to you, a key element of your FT identity, it is worth that little effort, isn't it? What is more, you can actually choose to actually make a statement of it. Now, that is freedom of expression.

Oh, but wait, is that not what you wanted? It is not the ability to display your post count that you are after, I hear you say?

Ah, It is all about peer recognition. So what you really want is my, and all other FTers' seal of approval for telling you that omni post count really, really matters, and we are all so very proud of you for having such a big one.

So, it is not just about leaving you free to do what yo want then, is it? It is about forcing all of us to worship to the altar of omni post counts.

You know what? I think you are terribly close to the truth here. Forget about all the grand talk of disenfranchisement, freedom of expression, etc... This has nothing to with all of that.
It might indeed all be ultimately about p.... envy (post-count envy, that is )
I have to agree with you that there is clearly a very substantial Freudian dimension to this debate and it clearly does not take a genius to work this one out.
But you might think it through a little bit. Because if that is the case, and I think that it is, I am not sure that you will necessarily be happy with the conclusions you will be led to as to why you consider it so important to have your omni posts counted and displayed for all to see...

31 pages (by my last count) and Im now sitting here wondering what the harm in OMNI posts counting is. That was where the commonly accepted status quo was prior to this most recent change (which sparked this discussion) and yet I cannot wrap my head around why OMNI posts counting in FT causes harm.

Can someone please explain this to me (since I'm obviously too dense right now to get it)?

As I understand it, counting OMNI posts was feeding the growth of purely post padding threads that arguably subtract value from OMNI.

OMNI is a difficult forum to moderate. Reasonable steps to make moderation easier help keep OMNI alive and healthy, and that's good for FT. Is Randy's decision the best possible option? I have no idea. But he certainly knows more than I do on this subject.

Could all of us here cooperate to come up with a superior proposal? Perhaps, but first we'd have to cooperate. I'm not hopeful about that. The underlying issue is ego-driven, and posturing seems to be the order of the day.

No problem. As soon as you explain why, on the other side, it is regarded as such an important issue.
Look, it is not the first time that there has been such a debate. Last time round, it also spawned a huge and inconclusive thread. What you really have to ask yourself, is: what did those who promoted a new motion on this expect it to produce other than yet another extremely lengthy, divisive and inconclusive debate?

the current motion was made in response to Randy's taking away post counts in OMNI 2 weeks ago @:-) It wasn't made willy nilly just to stir debate.

{edited by wharvey}

Thanks both to you and nsx for the answers. I agree with nsx on the assessment that this problem is very fixable once we all set aside our egos.

The problem I see is that you, NickB, are making is the fatal (IMHO) assumption that the posts not counting in OMNI (anti-posts for quick reference) was the currently accepted status quo for FT. This is counter to those of us who are arguing the other side understands it, that the status quo was OMNI posts counting (pro-posts for quick reference. Therefore it is extremely difficult for the pro-posts side to argue something that they assume is the status quo when the change was made without any perceived rational from Randy who I would consider anti-post for this argument.

The real issue, IMHO, is that the OMNI games got out of hand and that something needed to be done about it. Someone(s) who had their ego bruised by the fact that their superior post count was no longer as elite as it used to be pointed out that Randy had forgotten to enact a long passed 2004 motion regarding post counting for OMNI. Since this motion was never enacted and the general populous of FT had the understanding that OMNI posts were as valuable a part of FT as the rest of the forums some of us are confused as to why this change occurred so suddenly and without, in our feelings, just cause.

I would/could probably change my tune on this subject if someone could please explain to me how the spamming/post-padding that occurs in the Travel Safety and Security thread is different and of more value to FT than OMNI postings. I have asked this question multiple times and yet no one has answered it.

I'm not asking for OMNI to be treated differently than the rest of FT but am in fact asking that OMNI be treated exactly the same as the rest of FT. Blatant post padding should not be allowed to run unchecked on FT.

FWIW, Randy's stated position on the issue at this point is that posts in forums where there are entry barriers (ie, OMNI and Coupon Connection) should not count in the post count total. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showp...48&postcount=8