There is that durned ad hominem phrase again. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

Just to perk up the morning coffee of iluv2fly I have been doing research on this term:

http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/adhomine.html

Ad Hominem is the most familiar of informal fallacies, and -- with the possible exception of Undistributed Middle -- the most familiar logical fallacy of them all. It is also one of the most used and abused of fallacies, and both justified and unjustified accusations of Ad Hominem abound in any debate.

The phrase "ad hominem argument" is sometimes used to refer to a very different type of argument, namely, one that uses premisses accepted by the opposition to argue for a position. In other words, if you are trying to convince someone of something, using premisses that the person accepts--whether or not you believe them yourself. This is not necessarily a fallacious argument, and is often rhetorically effective.

Subfallacies:

Abusive: An Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition -- such as appearance -- is offered as evidence against her position. Such attacks are often effective distractions ("red herrings"), because the opponent feels it necessary to defend himself, thus being distracted from the topic of the debate.

Circumstantial: A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opponent is offered as evidence against the opponent's position. This fallacy is often introduced by phrases such as: "Of course, that's what you'd expect him to say."

The fallacy claims that the only reason why he argues as he does is because of personal circumstances, such as standing to gain from the argument's acceptance.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Oz, see how much better it reads when you lighten up? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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dallasflyer

Ozstamps, thank you so much. I learned more useful information from that single post explaining the subtypes of ad hominem attacks than I have from all of aveks posts combined. Well done!

Yet another disturbing example from one of FT's most famous flamers. It seems the juvenile nonsense is not enough when perpetrated by Earl, it must be perpetrated by others as well....

Yes, when WILL the FlyerTalk community rise up to put an end to these ad hominem personal attacks?

Sigh........

(And still pissing myself from laughing at Earl's pronouncements in this thread!)
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-Otto

[This message has been edited by OttoGraham (edited 08-27-2003).]

And speaking of lightening up..... it's about time some of you put down your barbs and leave the member alone. There are certainly some borderline TOS infringements here but I think you all ned to give Avek00 credit in that he has never contacted me whining about your criticism. I'm not up-to-date on the roots of this and haven't clicked the links to see the reported self-inflictions, but i do know when it's time to let this air out. He's a member with as much a right to any opinion as any of you, and I'll have to protect that right if i have to.

And with that said Avek00, let me wish you and all other TalkBoard candidates much success. There's only a few days left for balloting so a reminder to get to the poll.

I still have my ballot to cast as I always wait to see how any campaign unfolds. I am one of those that measures how they campaign to the candidate.

Flyertalk is a constant learning experience for me too. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

My Latin comprehension is improvimg slowly but surely.

http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/adhomine.html

Thanks for that link. It has been many years since I thought of Kekules amusing dream or studied Latin. Even more interesting is the logical term "Genetic fallicy" which I was unfamiliar with. Since I am a molecular biology/genetics professor I can accuse students and collegues alike of this leading to very confusing double entendres. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It seems odd that you'd take the time to read all the posts here but not take the time to review at least some of avek00's personal attacks and some his more egregious attacks on the UA & AA forums? (His offer to stop attacking the AA forum in return for votes seems particularly hard to defend, as does his vicious personal attack on techgirl. His unbridled joy at predicting the demise of UA, and the subsequent loss of employment by tens of thousands of workers is extremely appalling. What kind of person wishes such a thing on the families of these workers?) But it is your space so you can encourage people like avek00 while clearly discouraging dozens of valuable, contributing community members. Why you choose to do this is beyond my understanding but I assume you have your reasons.

[This message has been edited by transpac (edited 08-27-2003).]

transpac:
sorry you read things this way. I'd say it is far more personal style than the idea it is my space. My style is to ignore statements such as some of those by Avec00 and let the facts and subsequent events (UA is still in business) silently pass judgement. I for one (perhaps the only one) don't believe that individuals with comments such as his are alone - that there are others. My style is not to combat that individual. Perhaps over time i have learned to observe those types of individuals and know that the more you pound them, the more they enjoy the contest and it does the opposite - it keeps their opinions and that topic alive. Take away the pounding of his comments from this thread and the thread would have been gone some time ago as his keyboard simply echo's as no one hears. But his comments are alive to the challenge. My style is not about are his comments right or wrong - and I'd dispute any suggestion that I support them because they are allowed "on my space." Members of this community - not me - have promoted his comments to remain active. If he was talking to me about United, that thread would have been dead along time ago or he would have been expelled for incessant "bumping" because I certainly would not have validated his opinion as "worthy" with that issue.

At issue in my comments are not the focus of the comments themselves (please try and separate me from any other members comments), rather the actions of select members. This is how we disagree? My style is the humor i get when someone embarasses themselves, not from my attempts to embarass them. As Samuel Johnson once said: "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."

Consider a simple request to recognize other members "style" and not whether they own this board or not. And certainly whether allowing any members opinion is rightfully a reflection of my personal opinion.

Randy, I know that you took a lot of time to compose your response but I confess, after having read it six times, I do not understand what message(s) you are trying to convey, other than to say that it is ok for avek00 to personally attack members of the FT community and to generally cast a wholly negative pall over all the forums to which he 'contributes', and that if we just ignore him all will be well? If this is your message then I am a bit disappointed.

transpac I think, without being too hypocritical, that the point is that if one posts "UAL will be bankrupt in 2 hours" and we argue it goes on and around and ends up with personal attacks from that person and others. If instead the posts is ignored it dies its own well deserved death. I have only seen the personal attacks come after the arguing. If on the other hand, the response to "UAL will be bankrupt in 2 hours" is "how many SWUs does it take to...." or "I cant believe how badly the Mets suck" or "" then it goes away. I say I feel I hypocritical here since I do not ignore. However, deep down I know I should. But frankly, I enjoy not ignoring too much. This is sort of like drinking too much, you can know it is a bad idea but find it very hard to refrain at times. I am at least somewhat comforted that I can only recall one time where a moderator came after me personally for my response to avek. I am trying to do better, and JonNYC was going to help me ignore but has let me down http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif The current thread I am afraid was too much like seeing a kick me sign on someone for me to abstain but I will endevour to do better in the future. Maybe I will drink more to compensate, or even start smoking again http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Oops, edited to add: I just remembered I am teaching coming up next month, I will punish the students. It will be a rockin rollin test, bwahahahahahah.

[This message has been edited by GadgetFreak (edited 08-27-2003).]

BIG time!

I know that you're not supposed to bite the hand that feeds you (e.g. Randy), but I'm with transpac here. avek00 enjoys starting a lot of fires, especially in the UA and AA fora, and then runs kicking and screaming for help (and/or crying bloody murder about perceived ad hominem attacks) when others add gasoline to the mix. It's a pretty sad commentary when the best thing that can be said about him is that this time he didn't solicit help from Randy when the going got tough.

I think we would all be inclined to cut avek00 a little more slack if he wasn't such a habitual thorn in the side. Certainly he has a right to his opinion, and heck, it may even be well received when it is factually grounded and delivered in a non-incendiary manner. Before we condemn all of avek00's vocal critics in this particular thread, however, we should be mindful that avek00 himself invited most of the negative feedback by initiating this very thread soliciting votes and commentary on his TalkBoard candidacy.

Randy thanks for your time on this. I know you have clearly stated you have NOT clicked on all the links here, and realise you are too busy to do so. And you are smarter than all of us - realizing there is not ONE free mile, or upgrade in the whole 8 pages. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Some of the links were - trust me, pretty illuminating - and hard to ignore.

I hope that these 4 points are not in dispute:
[list=1][*] The avek00 nominated himself for TalkBoard. Like ANY candidate for ANY election ... no-one holds a gun to your head to nominate. However, one needs to accept that your recent actions and behaviour and past are from that point on under voter scrutiny.

[*] That avek himself started this thread and knew the reaction it would attract. (Almost no other TalkBoard applicants did likewise)
[*] Avek offered as I am sure you know to shamefully vote-buy/carpet-bag by posting in AA that he would never, EVER post in the AA forum if he were elected to TB. You appear to endorse that tactic by making no comments otherwise? Many would have immediately removed as a Candidate anyone acting that way. NJDavid said it "certainly hit a new low here on FT".
[*] In the very pages of this thread alone avek has made clear personal attacks upon other Flyertalkers, myself included. This has been NO one-way street. Which is clearly why he has NOT complained to you direct.
[/list=a]

We are all surely responsible for our own actions and posts. And avek00's direct actions re the 4 points above have resulted in this thread getting to 8 pages long IMO.

I am the first to agree that in NO other Forum would such commentary be appropriate. However this forum is called "TalkBoard Issues", and avek00 himself started the thread, knew the likely reaction, and cheerily keeps fuelling the commentary.

I was reminded by another FT'er earlier here of this tasteless and insensitive 'The Bin Laden Group Responds to the Rejection of its Offer to Rescue United Airlines' thread avek00 started.

TalkBoard - indeed FlyerTalk surely does NOT need folks who repeatedly claim such lowball stuff is clever and funny and appropriate to post around the Anniversary of September 11? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

It just reminds voters of the calibre of the Candidate is my take on that link.

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~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 08-27-2003).]

I didn't realize that I'm as smart as Randy! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

So the above quote gets repeated, only to fall on blind eyes again I'm afraid. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif