Another seat saving hassle and why I hate flying WN
Apr 18, 2014, 12:18 pm
#422
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Had an interesting experience yesterday with a stupid old lady. The GA announcemed that there were only 91 passengers so that people did not need to worry about grabbing a middle seat up front or overhead space. I had A38 and snagged an aisle seat in row 3. As I sat down the old bag boards and insists on taking a window seat in row 4. The aisle seat was already occupied by a woman with a cane who smiled and said that has difficulty getting up so she'd have to step over (interesting she had no trouble jumping up as soon as the plane landed.)
The old lady is holding up the whole line for a minute while she tries to figure out what to do then finally takes a seat in the next row across (which also required momentarily displacing an aisle passenger). I was tempted to say something but bit my tongue.
Honestly how difficult is it to move to the first open row when you see a mostly empty plane? Yes I get that everyone likes to deplane quickly but it is extremely inconsiderate to hold up the entire line when you cannot quickly seat yourself. Old people seem particularly clueless (I am an AARP member now but have no sympathy for dolts). I actually moved out of the aisle while I was retreiving ipod, ipad, etc. from my carryon so that people could move by (the polite thing to do) and then got jammed in due to the holdup.
That is remarkable. Only a douche would be unwilling to take an identical seat in the next row close to the front! I hope she turned the air vent full blast on his head.
Part of the problem of course was that you took the window not the aisle, which would have impeded his progress.
Interestingly on both my flights yesterday I found that the window occupant had opened the middle seat tray to hold a drink - awesome way to keep the seat open as long as possible.
The old lady is holding up the whole line for a minute while she tries to figure out what to do then finally takes a seat in the next row across (which also required momentarily displacing an aisle passenger). I was tempted to say something but bit my tongue.
Honestly how difficult is it to move to the first open row when you see a mostly empty plane? Yes I get that everyone likes to deplane quickly but it is extremely inconsiderate to hold up the entire line when you cannot quickly seat yourself. Old people seem particularly clueless (I am an AARP member now but have no sympathy for dolts). I actually moved out of the aisle while I was retreiving ipod, ipad, etc. from my carryon so that people could move by (the polite thing to do) and then got jammed in due to the holdup.
When my wife or son travels with me, I will try to save the aisle, but I will not deny it to anyone that insists. In one case, a young man sat in 5C early in the boarding process and I said my wife will coming later and I asked to save the seat for her. He refused. My wife gets on and asks him nicely for the seat. He refused. She moved on and sat in the aisle seat 6C right behind me. No big deal to us, but we were amazed that he would not move one row. Maybe he understood the value of the open middle. This one case was the only time that I have been unable to sit with my family member.
Part of the problem of course was that you took the window not the aisle, which would have impeded his progress.
Interestingly on both my flights yesterday I found that the window occupant had opened the middle seat tray to hold a drink - awesome way to keep the seat open as long as possible.
Apr 18, 2014, 2:44 pm
#423
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,621
It is unfortunate to see SANdyFlyer summarize the minority view expressed by him/her and attempt to portray it as the majority and/or definitive view.
Anyone reading this thread would realize that at best, the issue is far more nuanced than he/she lets on and at worst the issue is something that keeps a lot of frequent flyers from flying WN a lot more often.
And for those that say "go fly some other airline, WN won't miss you", I would only say that I have already done so. Most of my CP-level travel is now split between AS (MVPG75K) and B6 (Mosaic); they cover most of my mid/transcon needs and my North/South needs. so now I only need to fly WN a handful of times a year versus the handful of times a week in the past. And yes, the seat-saving hassles are a major reason why.
And it is not just me that has reduced WN flying. I also have some influence
over fellow workers, friends, family, etc. All of them are also flying WN a lot less because I am not flying them.
And yes, I know that WN had a great financial report recently - all of the
majors did, with the possible exception of UA. That said, is WN best served by having the current boarding system in place? They felt that they had to introduce all of the boarding option fees, so it is not like the "Southwest Way" will always be the same.
Anyone reading this thread would realize that at best, the issue is far more nuanced than he/she lets on and at worst the issue is something that keeps a lot of frequent flyers from flying WN a lot more often.
And for those that say "go fly some other airline, WN won't miss you", I would only say that I have already done so. Most of my CP-level travel is now split between AS (MVPG75K) and B6 (Mosaic); they cover most of my mid/transcon needs and my North/South needs. so now I only need to fly WN a handful of times a year versus the handful of times a week in the past. And yes, the seat-saving hassles are a major reason why.
And it is not just me that has reduced WN flying. I also have some influence
over fellow workers, friends, family, etc. All of them are also flying WN a lot less because I am not flying them.
And yes, I know that WN had a great financial report recently - all of the
majors did, with the possible exception of UA. That said, is WN best served by having the current boarding system in place? They felt that they had to introduce all of the boarding option fees, so it is not like the "Southwest Way" will always be the same.
Last edited by Orwaid; Apr 19, 2014 at 5:39 pm
Apr 18, 2014, 8:21 pm
#424
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
Great post, Ink! On my way to Walgreen's now to pick up some tissues, sprays, and some acting lessons. 
Maybe a new copy of "Effective Proselytizing on Airplanes" to casually flip through during the boarding process...The WAISW routine? You see the look when they first turn the corner to start down the aisle. They get on their tiptoes to be certain that there is nothing near the back. If the FA makes the dreaded only middle seats announcement, the search begins in earnest. First, find empty overhead space then examine the area for empty middles. If there are both then the routine continues. Look at window passenger. Look at aisle passenger. Then the gears start to turn and some say they want the seat and some move on. If they want it, they will point at the middle and then store the bag overhead then sit down.
All of this time, the people with the open middles are trying to score the perfect trifecta of middle taker: Attractive-Skinny-Smells OK. Pass the test and get eye contact and just the faintest smile. Fail, and no one looks at them hoping that ignoring will be a successful tactic. It generally isn't. A big 'possum grin will drive off more seat mates than the wry smile. Don't forget the redneck cap. NASCAR is good and John Deere is better. Ideal is NRA, Smith and Wesson or Glock. Always wear a well worn T-shirt with some sort of good saying. "The Second Amendment is there to guarantee the First" with crossed AR-15's works. So does anything advertising beer without a foreign name. Out of or into BWI a "NoBama" shirt can be good. The cap needs just a bit of dirt that might be a trace of bovine excrement. Also, you can shave at the hotel. Save up a three day growth. In other words, become the person you would not want to sit with.
On full flights, there is the dreaded back up and FA find and point routine. It works like this. You have stored your bag around Row 19 but there are no seats. None. A look back towards the door will find a FA with an arm, maybe two, outstretched pointing down at the remaining empty middles. It is sort of like the motion that people make when there is something on the sidewalk that you really do not want to step in. This is bad. You are thinking that you will be like a salmon swimming upstream to spawn to get your bag at the end of the flight, but too late. You are caught in the FA find and point trap. Those already sitting are furiously and silently trying to remember just who or what went up the aisle and is now returning to take their empty middle. (It is about this time that I take my "Seat Reserved" document and show it to the closest FA. They then mentally mark my empty middle as untouchable.) The point and take is quick. There. There. There. There is no choice. FA points at you, you take seat. You get what you get. You make a note that EBCI at $12.50 is not such a bad deal no matter what your husband/wife/SO might think. As people take their seats, the FA comes from the back and shuts up all of the overheads while doing what I gather is a mandatory fatigue/impact test to assure the door will not fall off in flight spilling its contents of luggage, computer cases, jackets and, if near the front, crutches and canes.
By the way, there can be a significant difference in the "This flight is nearly full" and "This flight is completely full, every seat will be taken." It can mean the difference between an open middle and no open middle. Of course the most telling announcement was a long time ago and you forgot to pay attention. "For those of you on Flight XXXX and don't mind being rerouted, we need Y volunteers......"
Apr 18, 2014, 8:50 pm
#425
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other airline, WN won't miss you", I would only say that I have already done so. Most of my CP-level travel is now split between AS (MVPG75K) and B6 (Mosaic); they cover most of my mid/transcon needs and my North/South needs. so now I only need to fly WN a handful of times a year versus the handful of times a week in the past. And yes, the seat-saving hassles are a major reason why.
Apr 19, 2014, 7:38 am
#426
Suspended
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Best I've ever seen.......I'm in aisle. About row 22. Man and woman sit down in row 21. Man sits in middle. Woman sits down in window. All of a sudden, man starts rocking back and forth, pretty aggressively. Calls over FA. "Miss. The seat back is broken. It won't stay in position." She puts an Out of Order placard on seat. He moves to aisle. Flight was about 95 pct full. FA didn't question it. Nothing was wrong with the seat back. He had no intention of sitting in middle....there were less than 30 people on at this time
Great post and insight as always Ink
Great post and insight as always Ink
I have been watching this thread and have been amused, entertained and occasionally bemused. As someone the saves a seat for a companion on every flight (100++ since CP), I have to agree that this is a problem for a very small portion of the customer base.
My experience is indeed unique, but I think the perspective is important. The seat I save is always in row 5-7 unless there are a ton of through passengers. Exit row is not allowed and I do not like the bulkhead. The seat remains empty until after the door closes. It is marked by only a piece of paper, no backpack, magazines, coat or other serious obstruction. It is a middle, but near the front of the plane and full flight with close connections, its value increases. Since I preboard, every other passenger that boards passes or has opportunity to see my reserved seat.
In all of this experience I have had only one passenger complain that I could not reserve seats as this was WN. One. One of thousands. On full flights, I usually get three-five that ask for the seat and I politely say it is reserved and they move on without complaint. I will admit that I am not exactly the ideal seat companion.
The most interesting are those that will ask if the still open aisle is available I will say yes, but that the middle is reserved. Many times they will move on unaware that they just passed up an open middle for the flight. I have even had people sit right behind me for the first leg knowing the empty middle will remain so and take a different seat than my aisle seat on a through flight only to get squeezed by someone that encroaches on their space. Oh, well.
When my wife or son travels with me, I will try to save the aisle, but I will not deny it to anyone that insists. In one case, a young man sat in 5C early in the boarding process and I said my wife will coming later and I asked to save the seat for her. He refused. My wife gets on and asks him nicely for the seat. He refused. She moved on and sat in the aisle seat 6C right behind me. No big deal to us, but we were amazed that he would not move one row. Maybe he understood the value of the open middle. This one case was the only time that I have been unable to sit with my family member.
As a preboard, I do see the techniques up close, and it is somewhat amusing. Bag in seat, coats over seat backs (once I saw a bed sheet over the backs of nine seats), sitting in middle leaving window and aisle open (my favorite), simply saying the seat is saved, putting down tray tables, standing at the aisle seat, a couple sitting window/aisle and leaning toward each other in conversation (actually more common with business people traveling together), sitting in the window seat with feet up in the other two and pretending to sleep, and feigning sleep in the aisle seat.
In all this time, the best ever, only seen once, but happened to me in my thinner days. I already had window. Woman sits in aisle and puts purse in middle and her tray table down. She pulled a huge wad of tissues out of the purse and the show began. She would sneeze. She would blow her nose. She had nose spray and throat spray that she would use from time to time. There was a deep and painful-sounding cough. Every time someone would look at the middle she would blow her nose loudly or cough. I actually thought of moving based on the show. Door gets closed and the safety demonstration started. Tissues, sprays and other things were put away. The rest of the four hour flight, no cough, no sneeze, not even a sniffle. It was performance art and nothing else. I was impressed and a bit repulsed. It did work. There were fewer than five empty seats on the flight, and we had one of them.
My experience is indeed unique, but I think the perspective is important. The seat I save is always in row 5-7 unless there are a ton of through passengers. Exit row is not allowed and I do not like the bulkhead. The seat remains empty until after the door closes. It is marked by only a piece of paper, no backpack, magazines, coat or other serious obstruction. It is a middle, but near the front of the plane and full flight with close connections, its value increases. Since I preboard, every other passenger that boards passes or has opportunity to see my reserved seat.
In all of this experience I have had only one passenger complain that I could not reserve seats as this was WN. One. One of thousands. On full flights, I usually get three-five that ask for the seat and I politely say it is reserved and they move on without complaint. I will admit that I am not exactly the ideal seat companion.
The most interesting are those that will ask if the still open aisle is available I will say yes, but that the middle is reserved. Many times they will move on unaware that they just passed up an open middle for the flight. I have even had people sit right behind me for the first leg knowing the empty middle will remain so and take a different seat than my aisle seat on a through flight only to get squeezed by someone that encroaches on their space. Oh, well.
When my wife or son travels with me, I will try to save the aisle, but I will not deny it to anyone that insists. In one case, a young man sat in 5C early in the boarding process and I said my wife will coming later and I asked to save the seat for her. He refused. My wife gets on and asks him nicely for the seat. He refused. She moved on and sat in the aisle seat 6C right behind me. No big deal to us, but we were amazed that he would not move one row. Maybe he understood the value of the open middle. This one case was the only time that I have been unable to sit with my family member.
As a preboard, I do see the techniques up close, and it is somewhat amusing. Bag in seat, coats over seat backs (once I saw a bed sheet over the backs of nine seats), sitting in middle leaving window and aisle open (my favorite), simply saying the seat is saved, putting down tray tables, standing at the aisle seat, a couple sitting window/aisle and leaning toward each other in conversation (actually more common with business people traveling together), sitting in the window seat with feet up in the other two and pretending to sleep, and feigning sleep in the aisle seat.
In all this time, the best ever, only seen once, but happened to me in my thinner days. I already had window. Woman sits in aisle and puts purse in middle and her tray table down. She pulled a huge wad of tissues out of the purse and the show began. She would sneeze. She would blow her nose. She had nose spray and throat spray that she would use from time to time. There was a deep and painful-sounding cough. Every time someone would look at the middle she would blow her nose loudly or cough. I actually thought of moving based on the show. Door gets closed and the safety demonstration started. Tissues, sprays and other things were put away. The rest of the four hour flight, no cough, no sneeze, not even a sniffle. It was performance art and nothing else. I was impressed and a bit repulsed. It did work. There were fewer than five empty seats on the flight, and we had one of them.
Apr 19, 2014, 8:56 am
#427
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
A big 'possum grin will drive off more seat mates than the wry smile. Don't forget the redneck cap. NASCAR is good and John Deere is better. Ideal is NRA, Smith and Wesson or Glock. Always wear a well worn T-shirt with some sort of good saying. "The Second Amendment is there to guarantee the First" with crossed AR-15's works. So does anything advertising beer without a foreign name. Out of or into BWI a "NoBama" shirt can be good. The cap needs just a bit of dirt that might be a trace of bovine excrement. Also, you can shave at the hotel. Save up a three day growth. In other words, become the person you would not want to sit with.
[Moderator Hat]To readers who believe that some posts in this thread are crossing the line into personal attacks: You are correct. Normal practice in this forum would be to transfer those exchanges to the Official Peanut Gallery thread, but I can't bring myself to break up such an entertaining and mostly on-topic discussion.
To those participating in sharp and one-dimensional characterizations of others' points of view, please tone that down. Ink has shown you how to entertain and persuade with humor rather than sarcasm or invective. Please emulate him.[/Moderator Hat]
Apr 19, 2014, 4:46 pm
#429
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 297
I don't qualify as a passenger of size, I can put the arm rest down and fasten the seat belt with no extender. With that said I'm a big guy. I always grab a window. My favorite is when another experienced almost POS sees this and grabs the aisle. Nobody wants that middle!
Apr 19, 2014, 5:27 pm
#430
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,621
Disalex, I am in the same position as you. I can get the armrest down and a seatbelt fastened without an extender on WN, but not much room to spare.
So yes, I am fat.
When a similar passenger of "almost COS" takes a window and I take an aisle, the person taking the middle seat is hopefully a maiden running 5'5".
Jamesteroh, I will be happy to talk to you about AS and B6 if you wish. Send me a PM with your questions. I will only say here that the AS/B6 combo has given me a flight experience as good or better than WN at reduced cost and as good or better FF benefits. And with AS starting DTW/SEA in the fall (with DEQM, no less), you will have options to the West Coast with MVP status after 3 RTs.
So yes, I am fat.
When a similar passenger of "almost COS" takes a window and I take an aisle, the person taking the middle seat is hopefully a maiden running 5'5".
Jamesteroh, I will be happy to talk to you about AS and B6 if you wish. Send me a PM with your questions. I will only say here that the AS/B6 combo has given me a flight experience as good or better than WN at reduced cost and as good or better FF benefits. And with AS starting DTW/SEA in the fall (with DEQM, no less), you will have options to the West Coast with MVP status after 3 RTs.
Last edited by Orwaid; Apr 19, 2014 at 5:35 pm
Apr 19, 2014, 5:59 pm
#431
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toledo, OH
Programs: Delta DM & MM, Hilton DM, Marriott gold, Hyatt Globalist, Alaska 75K, Wyndham Diamond,
Posts: 15,399
Disalex, I am in the same position as you. I can get the armrest down and a seatbelt fastened without an extender on WN, but not much room to spare.
So yes, I am fat.
When a similar passenger of "almost COS" takes a window and I take an aisle, the person taking the middle seat is hopefully a maiden running 5'5".
Jamesteroh, I will be happy to talk to you about AS and B6 if you wish. Send me a PM with your questions. I will only say here that the AS/B6 combo has given me a flight experience as good or better than WN at reduced cost and as good or better FF benefits. And with AS starting DTW/SEA in the fall (with DEQM, no less), you will have options to the West Coast with MVP status after 3 RTs.
So yes, I am fat.
When a similar passenger of "almost COS" takes a window and I take an aisle, the person taking the middle seat is hopefully a maiden running 5'5".
Jamesteroh, I will be happy to talk to you about AS and B6 if you wish. Send me a PM with your questions. I will only say here that the AS/B6 combo has given me a flight experience as good or better than WN at reduced cost and as good or better FF benefits. And with AS starting DTW/SEA in the fall (with DEQM, no less), you will have options to the West Coast with MVP status after 3 RTs.
Apr 19, 2014, 8:20 pm
#432
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,525
My personal favorite "gotta have a whole row to myself" story was on a flight from MDW to LAX.
While my sister and I were waiting for the flight, the gate agent made an announcement stating our flight was nearly booked to capacity. A guy seated near the gate put on a pair of headphones and started singing off key very loudly while wildly air drumming. Everyone in the gate area couldn't help buy notice and we all thought he was a nut job.
When boarding started, he was positioned near the front of the line and boarded well before my sister and myself.
As we walked down the aisle to find open seats, we noticed the same guy, sitting in a middle seat, headphones on and air drumming to his heart's content. Thank god he wasn't singing, too! Naturally, we stayed away from this dude and took seats at the window and middle on the other side of the plane.
We watched as he continued his act until the plane was completely boarded and the only empty seats on the entire plane were the ones on either side of him.
When we started to push back, he quit the air drumming and pulled off his headphones. As we got airborne, he raised the armrests on either side of his seat and spread out across the entire row for the whole flight.
Something told me this wasn't his first rodeo!
While my sister and I were waiting for the flight, the gate agent made an announcement stating our flight was nearly booked to capacity. A guy seated near the gate put on a pair of headphones and started singing off key very loudly while wildly air drumming. Everyone in the gate area couldn't help buy notice and we all thought he was a nut job.
When boarding started, he was positioned near the front of the line and boarded well before my sister and myself.
As we walked down the aisle to find open seats, we noticed the same guy, sitting in a middle seat, headphones on and air drumming to his heart's content. Thank god he wasn't singing, too! Naturally, we stayed away from this dude and took seats at the window and middle on the other side of the plane.
We watched as he continued his act until the plane was completely boarded and the only empty seats on the entire plane were the ones on either side of him.
When we started to push back, he quit the air drumming and pulled off his headphones. As we got airborne, he raised the armrests on either side of his seat and spread out across the entire row for the whole flight.
Something told me this wasn't his first rodeo!
Last edited by NextTrip; Apr 19, 2014 at 8:31 pm
Apr 20, 2014, 3:59 pm
#433
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Posts: 12,159
Everything, that is, except Southwest actually saying so.
Apr 20, 2014, 10:29 pm
#434
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Posts: 24,710
Apr 21, 2014, 9:09 am
#435
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 206
My personal favorite "gotta have a whole row to myself" story was on a flight from MDW to LAX.
While my sister and I were waiting for the flight, the gate agent made an announcement stating our flight was nearly booked to capacity. A guy seated near the gate put on a pair of headphones and started singing off key very loudly while wildly air drumming. Everyone in the gate area couldn't help buy notice and we all thought he was a nut job.
When boarding started, he was positioned near the front of the line and boarded well before my sister and myself.
As we walked down the aisle to find open seats, we noticed the same guy, sitting in a middle seat, headphones on and air drumming to his heart's content. Thank god he wasn't singing, too! Naturally, we stayed away from this dude and took seats at the window and middle on the other side of the plane.
We watched as he continued his act until the plane was completely boarded and the only empty seats on the entire plane were the ones on either side of him.
When we started to push back, he quit the air drumming and pulled off his headphones. As we got airborne, he raised the armrests on either side of his seat and spread out across the entire row for the whole flight.
Something told me this wasn't his first rodeo!
While my sister and I were waiting for the flight, the gate agent made an announcement stating our flight was nearly booked to capacity. A guy seated near the gate put on a pair of headphones and started singing off key very loudly while wildly air drumming. Everyone in the gate area couldn't help buy notice and we all thought he was a nut job.
When boarding started, he was positioned near the front of the line and boarded well before my sister and myself.
As we walked down the aisle to find open seats, we noticed the same guy, sitting in a middle seat, headphones on and air drumming to his heart's content. Thank god he wasn't singing, too! Naturally, we stayed away from this dude and took seats at the window and middle on the other side of the plane.
We watched as he continued his act until the plane was completely boarded and the only empty seats on the entire plane were the ones on either side of him.
When we started to push back, he quit the air drumming and pulled off his headphones. As we got airborne, he raised the armrests on either side of his seat and spread out across the entire row for the whole flight.
Something told me this wasn't his first rodeo!