Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, dont call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, dont call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
Mar 10, 2020 | 9:50 pm
#301
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: HKG • Ex SFO, NYC
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Posts: 3,326
[Unduly personalized content edited by Moderator, per FT Rule 12.]
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Mar 10, 2020 at 9:58 pm Reason: See note above.
Mar 10, 2020 | 10:35 pm
#302
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: HKG • Ex SFO, NYC
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Marriott Amb; Hyatt Globalist; Shangri-la Diamond; IHG SpireAmb; Hilton D; Accor G
Posts: 3,326
Mar 10, 2020 | 10:45 pm
#303
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 19,520
Mar 11, 2020 | 2:15 am
#304
Join Date: Apr 2013
Programs: AA, United, R34 ftw
Posts: 2,060
I agree, criminal negligence or negligent homicide, same goes for the regular flu, you show up at work sick and infect vulnerable co-worker and they die, it is on you (and your employer, if they did not have sick leave). I know it is controversial and tricky to criminalize this, but it is not much different from someone causing a DUI death.
Unless you can show that you did all you could to avoid it.
Unless you can show that you did all you could to avoid it.
Yes, there is some negligence, but hell I think that of everyone on the road that hasn't been to at least 3 performance driving schools and knows precision car control is negligent when they get in an accident. It's one of the disadvantage of living in a society--you have to deal with others' crap--just the way it works.
The problem is that there are a lot more obvious cases of harm that never get justice. Hell, I deal with it every day with criminal trespassing on my business property that causes damage to my property and goes unchecked and unprosecuted even though there is a state law specifically for it. I was even physically assaulted on my property and nothing was done to make me whole. And these are much more easily workable cases and yet they go without justice. I have absolutely zero faith that anyone can be made accountable for such actions. It's only individual actions that will bring justice in these cases. Like someone sneezes on you--you beat them into a pulp. It's a messed up world that we live in when street justice is becoming the only real justice, but I see it more and more every day.
Last edited by NewbieRunner; Mar 11, 2020 at 7:52 am Reason: Merge consecutive posts by same member
Mar 11, 2020 | 2:29 am
#305
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Moscow
Programs: Marriott Titanium, IHG Diamond AMB
Posts: 1,830
2) Saying that "AIDS is a death sentence" is simply wrong, especially when we're discussing a virus that kills 1-2% of those infected with it in a month
Mar 11, 2020 | 6:03 am
#306
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 19,520
Now, here's the interesting part. There are many people that literally live in the country where even the nearest walmart would be a 30 minute drive and the nearest neighbor would be over a mile away. Hypothetically, what would their odds be on never getting the virus if they never left their property? (self-quarantined indefinitely)
Mar 11, 2020 | 6:24 am
#307
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 2MM
Posts: 7,808
What you show is a typical seasonal cycle. We all hope the coming warm season will suppress the viruses. But one cannot use this figure to argue for a relationship. If you draw a time series of temperature of US it will show the opposite relationship with case number, To identify a temperature association one has to isolate all the non meteorological factors, including the counter measures such as healthcare infrastructure, behavior change of the masses and social distancing etc which clearly change with time.
(all bolding mine)
One can argue for a relationship using such a [temperature curve] figure, but one certainly can't prove it.
The US doesn't show "the opposite relationship" in my opinion, especially when one also considers the delay in reporting cases vs. the temperature curve. There could be a delay of many weeks from when the temperatures rise, and the reported cases diminish.
Iterating: There is a considerable delay in reports of confirmed cases vs. actual contamination, especially in the US.
Here's a post from a few days showing the mean-temperatures from the hot-spots from around the world. Notice the lack of warm climates!
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32156286-post3819.html
On a different subject: this story (from Virginia) illustrates how unprepared we really are (in the US), and the reluctance of testing still continues:
"When the couple returned to the U.S. Thursday from their vacation, he felt like he had a severe sinus infection, which had started on the last few days aboard their ship, MS A’Sara [Egyptian Cruise on the Nile river]. His wife, 58, started feeling flu-like symptoms on the flight back to Dulles International Airport."
"They told The Pilot that they were released Friday evening because they apparently didn’t meet the recommended criteria for testing."
From: https://www.pilotonline.com/news/hea...kii-story.html
Follow-up: "The results show a “presumptive positive,” and the hospitals have been informed."
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/vir...tive-positive/
Does the CDC still have to confirm all "positives"?
"He and his wife, 58, were told the finding is only presumed as positive until it is validated by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."
If this is anything like the lawyer who infected ~50 people in NYC, I wouldn't be surprised if this couple also infected quite a few (through no fault of their own!):
https://www.dailypress.com/news/heal...mty-story.html
Last edited by narvik; Mar 11, 2020 at 6:54 am
Mar 11, 2020 | 6:28 am
#308
Suspended
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 687
A ten second search would take you to Wikipedia where you would find out that the H1N1 pandemic was a disaster that infected 1+ billion people, but luckily was far less deadly than COVID-19 so it only killed 250,000-500,000 people.
[[i]Unduly personalized content edited by Moderator, per FT Rule 12.]
[[i]Unduly personalized content edited by Moderator, per FT Rule 12.]
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Mar 11, 2020 at 8:25 am Reason: See note above.
Mar 11, 2020 | 6:53 am
#309
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 2MM
Posts: 7,808
Mar 11, 2020 | 7:06 am
#310
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 5,037
I thought the point was to prevent the virus from leaving the host? For that, covering the mouth and nose should be enough. If everyone wears masks, so will those infected with the virus.
Mar 11, 2020 | 7:13 am
#311
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,337
Yes, but it is simply not realistic that everyone wears a mask. At least not for many, many months.
Mar 11, 2020 | 8:16 am
#312
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 5,037
Not sure I understand why it's such an issue. We aren't talking about high tech masks filtering out nanometer-sized particles. The masks don't have to be sterile either.
You can probably make a dozen of suitable masks from a t-shirt, all you need is some suitable fabric and straps. Or just place a scarf over your mouth and nose. Even if it doesn't filter out 100% of droplets you emit, it would filter out maybe 90% and thus cut new infection rates by a factor of 10.
Of course with the government here [edited by mod] sending information about masks supposedly not bringing any advantages (probably to prevent panic buying), there is no pressure to supply people with masks and thus we are heading full speed into an otherwise avoidable huge epidemic with thousands if not millions of deaths
You can probably make a dozen of suitable masks from a t-shirt, all you need is some suitable fabric and straps. Or just place a scarf over your mouth and nose. Even if it doesn't filter out 100% of droplets you emit, it would filter out maybe 90% and thus cut new infection rates by a factor of 10.
Of course with the government here [edited by mod] sending information about masks supposedly not bringing any advantages (probably to prevent panic buying), there is no pressure to supply people with masks and thus we are heading full speed into an otherwise avoidable huge epidemic with thousands if not millions of deaths
Last edited by NewbieRunner; Mar 13, 2020 at 6:27 am Reason: political comment
Mar 11, 2020 | 8:18 am
#313
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA MileagePlus (Premier Gold); Hilton HHonors (Gold); Chase Ultimate Rewards; Amex Plat
Posts: 7,288
You can't get AIDS (or COVID-19) from someone else. AIDS and COVID-19 are a set of symptoms associated with two corresponding viruses, HIV and SARS-CoV-2 respectively. And not everyone who is exposed to the latter two will get the former two. In fact there are some people with a mutation called CCR5-Δ32 who are essentially immune to HIV.
Mar 11, 2020 | 8:52 am
#314
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Programs: ʙᴏɴᴠo̱ʏ Plt, HH Dia, Nexus, Pilot FlyingJ Preferred, CFA1 Red
Posts: 5,337
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but in the west we simply do not have masks. I have one single mask myself, but I'm saving it for when I might actually need it. You cannot buy masks here as the shops are sold out. The hospitals are hoarding what they have. Hopefully the mask producers can whip up a hundred billion more masks ASAP.
Mar 11, 2020 | 9:16 am
#315
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Programs: Virgin Flying Club Red, Emirates Skywards Blue, BA Executive Club Blue, Amex BA
Posts: 2,575
Will people mistake my allergies for Coronavirus?
I often have bouts of sneezing, especially when flying due to my allergies, even after taking anti-histamines. Should I warn the cabin crew and my seat neighbors that it's not coronavirus?
