3 A321LR for SAS from H1 2020
Jan 30, 2019, 5:12 am
#31
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,980
Look at Germany. Only FRA and MUC and are *real* international long-haul airports, not even HAM. For a city of that importance for touristic activity and business. DUS, TXL and some other play in the HAM region.
It's not always logic which drives the decision on routes. A couple of years ago SK has a daily direct flight between CPH-VIE, and I believe ARN-VIE too. The route CPH-VIE was operated with A320/321's and often sold out. They then cut it to 3 weekly rotations and 6 months later closed it completely. Austrian has the hole time had 3 daily rotations between CPH-VIE and ARN-VIE. Some days they are now flying 4 daily rotations. They operate with the same type of birds, and also often have sold out flights.
If you want to book a flight CPH-VIE or ARN-VIE through SK, you will only get options to fly through FRA, or in rare cases CPH-ARN-VIE or ARN-CPH-VIE, but never CPN-VIE or ARN-VIE. Result. I'm offcource booking directly on Austrian.
If you want to book a flight CPH-VIE or ARN-VIE through SK, you will only get options to fly through FRA, or in rare cases CPH-ARN-VIE or ARN-CPH-VIE, but never CPN-VIE or ARN-VIE. Result. I'm offcource booking directly on Austrian.
Last edited by fassy; Jan 30, 2019 at 7:06 am
Jan 30, 2019, 8:57 am
#32
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
well, I’d rather fly AAR-FRA/CDG/AMS/LHR-‚x destinations in the US‘ than AAR-EWR-‘crappy-domestic-US-flight’ any day. I rather have a short leg to start and then the long TATL flight direct to my final destination. Something LH/KL/BA/AF can offer and SK will never be able to compete on this market. Far better option would be to increase rotations from AAR or BLL to CPH. And since that obviously is not commercial attractive, otherwise they would have done this long ago, I don't believe Jytland being a huge market.
You need to understand the logistics in Jutland. Both AAR and BLL are kind of in the middle of nowhere, and is pretty hard to get to without a car. Driving 3-4 hours and then take a 1 hour flight to CPH + boarding time etc. doesn't really add up when you can take the train from almost anywhere in Jutland and directly to the airport in 6 hours max. Taking the car to AAR, and then a direct flight to EWR could cut up to 4 hours, and might make sense for a lot of the people living in Jutland (I used to live more or less in the middle between BLL and AAR), but I would personally prefer to take the train to CPH and from there the widebody's to EWR. I hate the small birds.
LH has quite a number of longhaul destinations from DUS. I often heae it referred to as the third hub in Germany.
Last edited by highupinthesky; Jan 30, 2019 at 10:00 am
Jan 30, 2019, 9:34 am
#33
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,980
There also a decent number of long haul flights from HAM but still HAM and DUS do not play in the same league as FRA or MUC.
When I lived in Germany, I also had to drive 3 to 4 hrs to FRA for international long haul flights since the DUS flights didn’t help much.
Or 1,5hrs to HAJ, 2,5hrs flight (including check-in, waiting etc) to FRA/MUC a n hour to three hours layover, often longer)...
Still, nobody would think to make a HAJ-EWR flight, even though Hanover, Braunschweig, Wolfsburg, Bielefeld, Osnabrück, and the big open of Lower Saxony and NRW etc would together have much more potential than Jutland.
When I lived in Germany, I also had to drive 3 to 4 hrs to FRA for international long haul flights since the DUS flights didn’t help much.
Or 1,5hrs to HAJ, 2,5hrs flight (including check-in, waiting etc) to FRA/MUC a n hour to three hours layover, often longer)...
Still, nobody would think to make a HAJ-EWR flight, even though Hanover, Braunschweig, Wolfsburg, Bielefeld, Osnabrück, and the big open of Lower Saxony and NRW etc would together have much more potential than Jutland.
Jan 30, 2019, 10:06 am
#34
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
I understand why there is talk about the route, but as most other in this tread, I doubt there is a real demand for it. The route will definitely only be possible with the A321LR's and not on a daily rotation.
Jan 30, 2019, 10:13 am
#35
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,980
Which then makes it unattractive for business travelers. At least for me. When they did cut back CPH-BOS-CPH, I had to switch over back to LH as I could not manage to travel on the days SK deems to be travel worthy. Btw, the 737 was always pretty empty, just once 70% loaded. Would be interesting to see how the wide-body is doing nowadays. I bet, not to great either.
Mar 4, 2019, 10:16 am
#36
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: CPH
Programs: SK-EBD
Posts: 1,273
A little more info.
Rickard Gustafson tells Flight Global, that the airline intends to use the A321LRs as a “starting point, a test-bench” in order to “see what type of response we get from the market”.
It is considering using the aircraft to provide more direct long-haul connectivity from Scandinavia, linking secondary cities in the region to primary destinations on its network. While Gustafson says candidate routes have yet to be determined, he points to the examples of serving New York from Bergen or Aarhus.
He adds that the A321 can also help the carrier “adapt long-haul operations to seasonality”. “We can operate Boston with a widebody during summer,” he says. “But it’s not economical to do that during winter.” Combining a twin-aisle operation for the peak season with the A321LR during the low-demand periods would enable the airline to continue offering year-round service.
SAS will carry out an evaluation of the performance of the initial few aircraft and, says Gustafson according to Flight Global, “either scale up or scale down”.
Rickard Gustafson tells Flight Global, that the airline intends to use the A321LRs as a “starting point, a test-bench” in order to “see what type of response we get from the market”.
It is considering using the aircraft to provide more direct long-haul connectivity from Scandinavia, linking secondary cities in the region to primary destinations on its network. While Gustafson says candidate routes have yet to be determined, he points to the examples of serving New York from Bergen or Aarhus.
He adds that the A321 can also help the carrier “adapt long-haul operations to seasonality”. “We can operate Boston with a widebody during summer,” he says. “But it’s not economical to do that during winter.” Combining a twin-aisle operation for the peak season with the A321LR during the low-demand periods would enable the airline to continue offering year-round service.
SAS will carry out an evaluation of the performance of the initial few aircraft and, says Gustafson according to Flight Global, “either scale up or scale down”.
Mar 6, 2019, 3:06 am
#37
Moderator: SAS
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: BLL & CPH & ZRH
Programs: LX, SK EBD (*G)
Posts: 3,153
This sounds really exciting! I can't wait to see the seat configuration in C! (I am suspecting a configuration similar to the one BA has on some of their international A321 with the Thompson vantage seats, i.e 2-1, 1-2). Very exciting indeed. 
Mar 6, 2019, 3:34 pm
#38
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,189
Both the B/E Diamond and Cirrus reverse herringbone seats fit very well in an A321, and would be preferable to the Vantage seats. Time will tell what they go for.
Mar 6, 2019, 4:02 pm
#39
Moderator: SAS
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: BLL & CPH & ZRH
Programs: LX, SK EBD (*G)
Posts: 3,153
So for me Herringbone seats sound the best way to go as they will include some sing window/aisle seats
Mar 6, 2019, 4:17 pm
#40
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
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I am not a huge fan of the Diamond seat in general, but in the A321 they do a better job than the standard Vantage seat in my opinion.
Mar 9, 2019, 8:11 pm
#41
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DCA
Programs: TK*G OZ*G AA Plat
Posts: 627
I'm looking at the departures list for AAR for tomorrow (Sunday), and there are a total of 10 scheduled departures for the entire day. CPHx4, Madeira, MUC, London, ARN, Gdansk, and OSL. Can this airport really support transatlantic service if it can only support 10 flights/day within Europe?
To put it in perspective, even a small airport in the US like AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennslyvania) and I see 7 flights departing tomorrow just before 8am... and no one would ever suggest trans-atlantic (or even trans-continental) service from there.
To put it in perspective, even a small airport in the US like AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennslyvania) and I see 7 flights departing tomorrow just before 8am... and no one would ever suggest trans-atlantic (or even trans-continental) service from there.
Mar 9, 2019, 8:48 pm
#42
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,189
I'm looking at the departures list for AAR for tomorrow (Sunday), and there are a total of 10 scheduled departures for the entire day. CPHx4, Madeira, MUC, London, ARN, Gdansk, and OSL. Can this airport really support transatlantic service if it can only support 10 flights/day within Europe?
To put it in perspective, even a small airport in the US like AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennslyvania) and I see 7 flights departing tomorrow just before 8am... and no one would ever suggest trans-atlantic (or even trans-continental) service from there.
To put it in perspective, even a small airport in the US like AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennslyvania) and I see 7 flights departing tomorrow just before 8am... and no one would ever suggest trans-atlantic (or even trans-continental) service from there.
For international connections BLL seems to take most of the attention, and as AAR is not well placed compared to the city the drive to is probably only 20 to 30 minutes longer to BLL for quite a bit of the city. Making it fairly difficult for the run down place AAR is to compete effectively at attracting airlines compared to BLL.
What are the departure numbers for a Monday?
Mar 9, 2019, 10:53 pm
#43
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ARN
Posts: 3,472
I'm looking at the departures list for AAR for tomorrow (Sunday), and there are a total of 10 scheduled departures for the entire day. CPHx4, Madeira, MUC, London, ARN, Gdansk, and OSL. Can this airport really support transatlantic service if it can only support 10 flights/day within Europe?
To put it in perspective, even a small airport in the US like AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennslyvania) and I see 7 flights departing tomorrow just before 8am... and no one would ever suggest trans-atlantic (or even trans-continental) service from there.
To put it in perspective, even a small airport in the US like AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennslyvania) and I see 7 flights departing tomorrow just before 8am... and no one would ever suggest trans-atlantic (or even trans-continental) service from there.
According to the flight map on the airport web site, AAR has international flights to 21 destinations. SAS alone has 10 international destinations from AAR according to Wikipedia (FAO, AGP, MAN, MUC, OSL, ARN, NCE, PMI, SPU, FCO).
Mar 10, 2019, 4:07 am
#44
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OSL
Posts: 2,646
Does the Vantage XL fit on an NB. Agree standard Vantage is not great and Cirrus or Diamond would be better. That said, not a fan of the Diamond seat given the fixed table, and SK could always opt for the AY version of the Cirrus which is incredibly uncomfortable.
That said, I do not understand SKs rationale here. Surely opening up more primary departure points in Scandinavia is just silly? For an an airline of its size they’re already running a highly deconsolidated model which leads to higher costs. Now want to open up from BGO or AAR? Surely if anything it should be routes from OSL or thinner routes from CPH? Or ARN. I really do not believe that the yields of a direct flight from BGO are so high as to warrant a direct flight. They should accept some market share is lost to DY but chasing trashy yields isn’t the way to go. I don’t think fares from OSL are that high to eg EWR so don’t understand what they will achieve in BGO.
Instead they should take a leaf out of BAs book, the 787 have opened routes they thought were commercially unviable, and in certain cases led to upgauging to a 77W or 747, their highest capacity aircrafts. In my view that’s the strategy to focus on from their already too many hubs model...
That said, I do not understand SKs rationale here. Surely opening up more primary departure points in Scandinavia is just silly? For an an airline of its size they’re already running a highly deconsolidated model which leads to higher costs. Now want to open up from BGO or AAR? Surely if anything it should be routes from OSL or thinner routes from CPH? Or ARN. I really do not believe that the yields of a direct flight from BGO are so high as to warrant a direct flight. They should accept some market share is lost to DY but chasing trashy yields isn’t the way to go. I don’t think fares from OSL are that high to eg EWR so don’t understand what they will achieve in BGO.
Instead they should take a leaf out of BAs book, the 787 have opened routes they thought were commercially unviable, and in certain cases led to upgauging to a 77W or 747, their highest capacity aircrafts. In my view that’s the strategy to focus on from their already too many hubs model...
Mar 10, 2019, 6:54 am
#45
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,187
Didn't Norwegian just fall flat on their face trying to make 7M8 service work to small village airports on the US east coast? I like the idea of downgauging some routes during the offseason, but intercont service from secondary towns in Scandic? Thats just a subsidy grabbing scam...