Checking firearms
Jun 20, 2011, 1:41 pm
#16
Join Date: Jul 2006
Programs: United
Posts: 2,710
At that point, I think a simple call to the airline would be in order ...
"Hi, you're now in possession of a firearm for which you don't have a license. In your airport, that might mean that you're currently guilty of a felony. Furthermore, now that you've broken the lock, you're now wholly responsible if that firearm is stolen from my unsecured suitcase and used to commit a crime. When would you like me to call the ATF?"
At that point, I think the airline would find a way to get that hot potato back to you as fast as humanly possible.
Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of how this would really work; I don't own a firearm. My conjecture above is based solely on reading other's experiences here on FlyerTalk.
"Hi, you're now in possession of a firearm for which you don't have a license. In your airport, that might mean that you're currently guilty of a felony. Furthermore, now that you've broken the lock, you're now wholly responsible if that firearm is stolen from my unsecured suitcase and used to commit a crime. When would you like me to call the ATF?"
At that point, I think the airline would find a way to get that hot potato back to you as fast as humanly possible.
Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of how this would really work; I don't own a firearm. My conjecture above is based solely on reading other's experiences here on FlyerTalk.
Now, it would still be a violation of federal law since those weapons would have been transferred outside the state of residence of the previous owner without it going through an FFL.
So, still a crime but not the one that you think of.
Jun 20, 2011, 1:44 pm
#17
Formerly known as billinaz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Goodyear,AZ for now then FL Spacecoast
Programs: US Airways Dividend Miles, American AAdvantage, Avis Preferred, Budget Rapid Rez, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,145
Then I sat back and edited it, and I re-read the airline policy I had (the FARs dont address where the tag goes and in fact dont even require a tag)
I knew that FAR 108.203 required a declaration o a firearm in the bag. Then I remembered a problem I had in LIT, but I forgot that my issue was the reverse of what I had typed.
So since this is an airline policy issue we are talking about and not a federal regulation here is the policy of one major airline:
Declaration Form
• Baggage containing firearms will -not- knowingly be accepted for transportation unless a -signed- and -dated- declaration form is completed.
• The form must be placed inside the container with the firearm. If the container with the firearm is inside another bag, the form must be placed near the container with the firearm inside the bag - not inside the container with the firearm.
• Applicable to both Domestic and International travel.
The only thing that I think people do that is a mistake is that they are using TSA approved locks. The only person that should have the key/combo to your bag is you. If the TSA wants to open it you can provide them with the key while they open it and then they hand it back to you after they lock the bag.
As a matter of practice what happens is that the ticket agent goes with you to give the bag to the screener. After it goes thru, then you walk away.
In the case of airports where you cannot see the bag screening the airline agent will go back with the bag and let you know if it was cleared or if TSA wants to open it (with you present).
The only airports ve had an issue with are the NYC airports. They police were notified by the Attorney Generals office that they were operating outside of the firearm owners protection act (FOPA) by no allowing persons to trvel through with their firearms in accordance with the federal act.
In JFK,LGA, and EWR the airline agent will not allow you to check in your bag until they have a PAPD officer come by and verify you can have a weapon in NYC. If not, you get arrested, charged, and booked.
Even though it is not the airlines job to determine if you are or are not in compliance with NYC laws, this is exactly what they are doing. They should be checking your bag through.... but they detain you there until they can get a PAPD officer to come over.
Last edited by SpaceCoastBill; Jun 20, 2011 at 2:23 pm Reason: Because I suffer from CRS
Jun 20, 2011, 3:28 pm
#19
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DFW
Posts: 593
The only airports ve had an issue with are the NYC airports. They police were notified by the Attorney Generals office that they were operating outside of the firearm owners protection act (FOPA) by no allowing persons to trvel through with their firearms in accordance with the federal act.
In JFK,LGA, and EWR the airline agent will not allow you to check in your bag until they have a PAPD officer come by and verify you can have a weapon in NYC. If not, you get arrested, charged, and booked.
Even though it is not the airlines job to determine if you are or are not in compliance with NYC laws, this is exactly what they are doing. They should be checking your bag through.... but they detain you there until they can get a PAPD officer to come over.
In JFK,LGA, and EWR the airline agent will not allow you to check in your bag until they have a PAPD officer come by and verify you can have a weapon in NYC. If not, you get arrested, charged, and booked.
Even though it is not the airlines job to determine if you are or are not in compliance with NYC laws, this is exactly what they are doing. They should be checking your bag through.... but they detain you there until they can get a PAPD officer to come over.
Jun 20, 2011, 3:43 pm
#20
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,702
At that point, I think a simple call to the airline would be in order ...
"Hi, you're now in possession of a firearm for which you don't have a license. In your airport, that might mean that you're currently guilty of a felony. Furthermore, now that you've broken the lock, you're now wholly responsible if that firearm is stolen from my unsecured suitcase and used to commit a crime. When would you like me to call the ATF?"
At that point, I think the airline would find a way to get that hot potato back to you as fast as humanly possible.
Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of how this would really work; I don't own a firearm. My conjecture above is based solely on reading other's experiences here on FlyerTalk.
"Hi, you're now in possession of a firearm for which you don't have a license. In your airport, that might mean that you're currently guilty of a felony. Furthermore, now that you've broken the lock, you're now wholly responsible if that firearm is stolen from my unsecured suitcase and used to commit a crime. When would you like me to call the ATF?"
At that point, I think the airline would find a way to get that hot potato back to you as fast as humanly possible.
Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of how this would really work; I don't own a firearm. My conjecture above is based solely on reading other's experiences here on FlyerTalk.
I'm not talking about having a license for your firearm, or any crime such ad that. You missed my point entirely.
Jun 20, 2011, 3:43 pm
#21
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DFW
Posts: 593
I disagree. There are multiple processes to screen checked firearms.
I would like to point out something that no one has mentioned, because the odds of it happening are very rare. I have heard people state that to prevent theft throw a gun into the bag, thus the bag is checked in front of you, and so on. Ok, lets say that works, and often it will.
But what happens when and if you bag is put on the wrong plane, unloaded at another destination, and when the airline employees realize it, submit it for re-inspection by TSA, the lock is cut off, the gun found - and now your luggage can not go, stuck in an airport you are not.
As example, today I had to screen bags that the airline put on the wrong plane, then waited at the baggage claim area before the airline employees realized were put on the incorrect flight. So the bags had to be rescreened before being flown to their original destination. It doesn't happen often, but considering how many hundreds of thousands of people who fly in a single day, I would guess it happens thousand of times a day around the country.
I realize this is off topic, just wanted to throw this out there to make sure your aware of the possibility. Have fun discussing it by yourselves.
Add: the other day I remember having to screen a baby carriage that was put on the wrong flight. Family got it the follow day. Felt bad for them.
I would like to point out something that no one has mentioned, because the odds of it happening are very rare. I have heard people state that to prevent theft throw a gun into the bag, thus the bag is checked in front of you, and so on. Ok, lets say that works, and often it will.
But what happens when and if you bag is put on the wrong plane, unloaded at another destination, and when the airline employees realize it, submit it for re-inspection by TSA, the lock is cut off, the gun found - and now your luggage can not go, stuck in an airport you are not.
As example, today I had to screen bags that the airline put on the wrong plane, then waited at the baggage claim area before the airline employees realized were put on the incorrect flight. So the bags had to be rescreened before being flown to their original destination. It doesn't happen often, but considering how many hundreds of thousands of people who fly in a single day, I would guess it happens thousand of times a day around the country.
I realize this is off topic, just wanted to throw this out there to make sure your aware of the possibility. Have fun discussing it by yourselves.
Add: the other day I remember having to screen a baby carriage that was put on the wrong flight. Family got it the follow day. Felt bad for them.
Upon landing, and not finding my luggage, I immediately let the AA baggage people know that a bag with a firearm inside it was missing. You should have seen the firedrill that ensued. I've never seen so many AA supervisors in one place. I never bothered to tell them that it was a flare gun.
A few hours later the luggage was delivered to my hotel, undamaged, and locks intact. The fact that my locks were hardened boron steel probably had something to do with them being intact.
Jun 20, 2011, 3:50 pm
#22
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
Your point, as I understand it, was "sucks to be you with your luggage stuck in some other city with your firearm, and now because your luggage was opened during screening, it can't be sent back to you".
My point is this: sucks to be the airline with a firearm on its hands that isn't under the control of its owner. For example:
Upon landing, and not finding my luggage, I immediately let the AA baggage people know that a bag with a firearm inside it was missing. You should have seen the firedrill that ensued. I've never seen so many AA supervisors in one place. I never bothered to tell them that it was a flare gun.
A few hours later the luggage was delivered to my hotel, undamaged, and locks intact. The fact that my locks were hardened boron steel probably had something to do with them being intact.
A few hours later the luggage was delivered to my hotel, undamaged, and locks intact. The fact that my locks were hardened boron steel probably had something to do with them being intact.
Jun 20, 2011, 3:57 pm
#23
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DFW
Posts: 593
With respect, I think you missed my point.
Your point, as I understand it, was "sucks to be you with your luggage stuck in some other city with your firearm, and now because your luggage was opened during screening, it can't be sent back to you".
My point is this: sucks to be the airline with a firearm on its hands that isn't under the control of its owner. For example:
See? No problems for the passenger, only the airline.
Your point, as I understand it, was "sucks to be you with your luggage stuck in some other city with your firearm, and now because your luggage was opened during screening, it can't be sent back to you".
My point is this: sucks to be the airline with a firearm on its hands that isn't under the control of its owner. For example:
See? No problems for the passenger, only the airline.
Jun 20, 2011, 4:16 pm
#24
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,702
I've had that situation occur, but in my case, the luggage was sent on to the correct airport without it being molested by the TSA.
Upon landing, and not finding my luggage, I immediately let the AA baggage people know that a bag with a firearm inside it was missing. You should have seen the firedrill that ensued. I've never seen so many AA supervisors in one place. I never bothered to tell them that it was a flare gun.
A few hours later the luggage was delivered to my hotel, undamaged, and locks intact. The fact that my locks were hardened boron steel probably had something to do with them being intact.
Upon landing, and not finding my luggage, I immediately let the AA baggage people know that a bag with a firearm inside it was missing. You should have seen the firedrill that ensued. I've never seen so many AA supervisors in one place. I never bothered to tell them that it was a flare gun.
A few hours later the luggage was delivered to my hotel, undamaged, and locks intact. The fact that my locks were hardened boron steel probably had something to do with them being intact.
I doubt you had the situation I described. There are bags put on the incorrect plane, which the airline employees catch before they make it to the baggage claim area (non-sterile area). Those bags can be sent to their proper location without being screened.
And then it ASLO depends on the set up of the baggage screening area at the airport. Most L3s or CTXs will clear a bag without the need to open, even with a gun in it. Sometimes not. And sometimes those machines are not available so every bag has to be opened by hand.
So again, your situation was not the one I was describing.
Jun 20, 2011, 4:24 pm
#25
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,702
With respect, I think you missed my point.
Your point, as I understand it, was "sucks to be you with your luggage stuck in some other city with your firearm, and now because your luggage was opened during screening, it can't be sent back to you".
My point is this: sucks to be the airline with a firearm on its hands that isn't under the control of its owner. For example:
See? No problems for the passenger, only the airline.
Your point, as I understand it, was "sucks to be you with your luggage stuck in some other city with your firearm, and now because your luggage was opened during screening, it can't be sent back to you".
My point is this: sucks to be the airline with a firearm on its hands that isn't under the control of its owner. For example:
See? No problems for the passenger, only the airline.
Jun 20, 2011, 5:50 pm
#26
Join Date: Jul 2006
Programs: United
Posts: 2,710
So, why would the airline give my property to the police?
Jun 20, 2011, 6:43 pm
#27
Formerly known as billinaz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Goodyear,AZ for now then FL Spacecoast
Programs: US Airways Dividend Miles, American AAdvantage, Avis Preferred, Budget Rapid Rez, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,145
Jun 20, 2011, 7:06 pm
#28
Join Date: Jul 2006
Programs: United
Posts: 2,710
The problem is that the airlines have then been the ones to transfer the firearm to another person. If they kept the weapon secured and reunited it with the owner then there is no problem. The airline broke the law by giving it to anyone except the owner.
Jun 20, 2011, 9:09 pm
#29
Formerly known as billinaz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Goodyear,AZ for now then FL Spacecoast
Programs: US Airways Dividend Miles, American AAdvantage, Avis Preferred, Budget Rapid Rez, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,145
It should be pointed out that in most states it is not a requirement to have a license to posses a firearm. Now, I have seen some very interesting reactions when a lawyer took possession of a legal full auto rifle without having the paperwork for it. One phonecall to the lawyer with information about the laws that he was breaking got those guns returned very quickly.
Now, it would still be a violation of federal law since those weapons would have been transferred outside the state of residence of the previous owner without it going through an FFL.
So, still a crime but not the one that you think of.
Now, it would still be a violation of federal law since those weapons would have been transferred outside the state of residence of the previous owner without it going through an FFL.
So, still a crime but not the one that you think of.
So send it the day before via fedex.......
Jun 21, 2011, 6:50 am
#30
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
In any event ... I still think the airline comes across much worse in your scenario ... which is why the airlines seem to take so much more care with luggage containing declared firearms. (Which was, after all, the original point of the thread ...)