Any orifice it can fit into, it can also come out of before being detonated, and anything with a volume enough to hide in a normal-sized shoe will have a total volume small enough to be stuffed up a rectum.

OTOH, I guess doing the "I've gotta go to the bathroom" dance while in line for the checkpoint is going to be about equally suspicious as doing it in customs.

I think he's saying that failing an ETD isn't the only reason for that pat-down.

This has been discussed in great detail in at least three other threads.

Unfortunately, so can "the bad guys", so I can understand why going into too many details on this issue might not be the best idea.

I think we can all come up with some possibilities. Off the top of my head:

- strongly positive ETD on certain substances (such as PETN) that people are unlikely to encounter but are used by terrorists.

- AIT image or standard pat-down showing something suspicious in the genital or breast area

In my industry there is relatively common inadvertent exposure to toluene, a component of TNT. It has set off the ETD after jobs on more than one occasion. It is my fear exactly. It will wash off but is absorbed into the skin very quickly, and residues remain.

Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner!

I has been discussed but I don't recall any legal types suggesting that doing so would be potentially successful or not.

I cannot believe that TSA has carte blanche to violate a person and not be held accountable. Who is the proponent for the traveler when TSA has a person out of sight of the public?

Some form of legal recourse against suspected breaches of protocol have to be available to the public.

I would never allow myself to be isolated from public view without witness from an outside source.

I may permit the private screening under three conditions:

1. I can be told the scope of the upcoming screening so that I can give informed consent. Not as it is progressing. Before it starts.
   
2. I can have a witness of my choice.
   
3. My witness will be permitted to take photographic evidence.

Are any of these unfair or not permitted?

Only after being read my rights and being arrested.

There is no reason any person should be treated in a manner that is not openly viewable to the public unless being charged for a crime. Even then I think suspected criminals have more protections than a person who just wishes to travel some place by commercial air.

Something is very wrong in our country when TSA or any other government entity can shake people down without cause!

Refer to my bold above: I would hope that this would have been made clear in the informed consent part. It would include what they suspect, and how they will search and if there is criminal liability involved. I also said "may" reserving the right to terminate the search even the answers are given.

Quite sure. Think about the process necessary for someone to do as you propose. Ever had a colonoscopy?

Yeah, I read about that one a while back. Not a viable threat, not to an aircraft.

Science fiction I said and Science Fiction I meant. You may quote me. @:-)

To date there has not been a successful use of a surgically implanted explosive device. Given the hurdles that such a theory must overcome I don’t see it happening any time soon. Sure, many news articles out there postulate the idea, but it is not a practical way to introduce an explosive device. There were also news articles about sea monsters once upon a time, giant snake/dragon things eating ships whole. And some people believed those news articles as well.

IOW, there is far more to it than your answer provides. Its not that simple.

It was meant to be. Have you read some of the theories that the folks around this forum believe in this area? If so then you should have the same “attitude” as I.

And you are of the opinion that your fellow passengers are not going to notice someone pulling a fairly large object either out of their mouth or their trousers? Something that should not have been there in the first place?

Sorry, but the technical issues presented by placing an explosive device into a body cavity and then removing it for use are enough to make it an unviable proposal. I am no bomb expert, not like an EOD trained bomb tech, but even I can think of many issues that would be difficult to overcome to make such a thing viable.

Included in the Washington State legal definition of sexual assault is: nonconsensual intentional touching of the genitals, including through clothing.

Sort of - only the light version (a sigmoidoscopy.) They don't give you either sedatives or anesthesia the way they often will when it's going around the bend of the colon, and while it's unpleasant (and embarassing, although I lucked out and the doctor (or nurse/tech?) who administered it looked like she'd be someone's grandmother, and was about as reassuring and non-embarassing a witness as one could ask for), it's not painful.

For that matter, there's plenty of pornography out there demonstrating just how large an object can go there given a willing recipient. I don't recommend looking for it, though.

I have to assume that's more a matter of a lack of a willing bomber, or the organizations involved having access to more effective and less costly methods.

I'm of the opinion that one could quite readily go to the lavatory on the aircraft, or even in a bathroom stall in the airport post-security, without other passengers noticing anything out of the ordinary except some uncomfortable noises indicative of say, traveller's trots or motion sickness or bulimia.

On-aircraft, I'd certainly hope that bringing a full-size carryon into the restroom would attract attention, but in the airport it would not, and on-aircraft you could quite readily bring in a toiletry kit, dump the original contents and put the device in to return it to your seat (or just detonate it in the lavatory if it's on the outside of the plane.)

Given that we've been paranoid about items that would fit into a normal shoe or someone's underwear, the volume when dealing with solids can't be that large or the threat involved with the prior two failed attempts can't have been as big as previously believed.

Fortunately, both of those two attempts seem to have been epic fails on the terrorists part, and foiled because of some combination of passenger vigilance and their own incompetence, with the TSA rather late to the party on those threats.

Ron - My PMH/PMX/PSH or procedures I have had in the past are nunya. Considering I am a health care provider and my degree is heavy on the sciences (Chemistry, Physics, and Anatomy and Physiology), I know what the volumes stored can be, which i posted above but as per your normal MO completely ignored because they dont fit your "facts".

Im so tempted to put a go litely joke up but I might offend you and you go running to the mods to whine and tattle. Even though its true for all of TSA.

Considering you claim to be a ex MP you are pretty dense as you obviously never heard or seen keestering or regurg by criminals. There is a very large volume you can store internally. If you dont believe me why dont you go ask some prison guards about items found in criminals body cavities, that would curl your toes(especially the x-rays) and i wouldnt be surprised if a code brown happened.


You sure about that? According to what i have heard from family members who are still serving overseas in areas they cant say where, have said that the reports they saw from the event that part of the bombers femur was found 100' a ways firmly embedded into a marble pillar. With that distance and the material it imbedded in thats enough to go through the skin of a aircraft and cause a explosive decompression and structural failure of the frame causing a complete loss.



are you sure about that or your facts, or can i just chalk this up to the same as your comments in the past about Money, being able to ID drugs by site, etc?


Then there is this


Who said anything about removing it to be used or activated? The detonator doesnt even have to be outside of the body (tripped by magnetic switch, or button) to activate it. It is very viable if you would open your eyes, look, and lay off the koolaid. One of my friends is trauma surgeon and from Pakistan and has seen it done, in the bombing of a government building. The suicide bomber looked like a she was about 6 months pregnant and no one thought anything of it and then bomb went off and destroyed the building killing half of the people in the building and the remaining injuries varied depending on distance from the blast. A woman 6months along the size of that bump could be 5-15 lbs of explosives.

The typical surgical incision heals in 10-21 days and after that it wouldnt raise anyone suspicions based on looks, then again I dont think you could tell the age of a scar by sight based on your past claims.

Well I can tell you what the doctors told me when I got mine. They said that they would only perform it on someone under general anesthesia. From that I deduced that the pain was far more than I, or anyone really, was willing to accept or in most people tolerate. Yuk.

In my youth. Yes, there are many things that “will” fit, of all sizes, but doing so and then transiting a large section of an airport, a checkpoint, and then a significant portion of the sterile area without betraying one’s self is something only James Bond 007 would try.

More to it than that. What happens during a normal open incision surgical procedure? How long must that person spend recovering? What’s the possibility of infection or toxic materials killing the patient? How likely is it that a surgeon will knowingly implant an explosive device knowing that it is designed to be used to kill people? And those are just the things I can think of off the top of my head. Imagine how much more I have missed?

Again you are not thinking of the roadblocks to this.

Yes, they were idiots. The liquid bomb plot of 2006 was quite ingenious, even if they were caught before they were out of the planning stage. Richard Reid’s idea of exploding shoes, while attempted by another idiot, posed a significant threat to the aircraft, and the concept still poses a major threat. The design of an IED is limited only by the imagination of the designer.

Did you read the thread about the Asian guy disguised as an elderly Caucasian man? Did you see the pictures? And there are people here that think that the elderly cannot pose a threat to commercial aviation. You would think that none of them had ever seen Mrs. Doubtfire.

They why in gods name are you ignoring your own training? If what you report here is an accurate representation of your education then you should know the limitations, or at the very least be able to figure them out for yourself.

I know a bit about it, but in the military these are rare things to encounter during peace time.

Links please. Unsubstantiated meanderings are meaningless.

And gee this was such a nice conversation until now…..

Kindly read my reply to nkedel. You are overlooking far too many things. Or is this arguing just to be arguing?

Please, stop ignoring your own reported training and start thinking. You may not like the TSA, you may not like me, but the muddy thinking evident in your comments above do you no justice.

I call BS, it was more along the lines of conscious sedation, GA is not used for this type of procedure normally except in certain conditions or sensitivities . You were slightly awake but the medication made you not recommend it. I can tell with one question. when you woke up did you have a scratchy or sore throat?

Its not the pain its the discomfort of the C02 they inject to inflate the intestine that is very uncomfortable. See previous posts to see the volume that can be in the large intestine alone.

thats your blinders you have on that your not seeing the light. The previous link i posted the bomber had been around those people for hours to almost a day before doing so.



Ayman_al-Zawahiri was a surgeon, so your argument holds no water.

Incisions heal within 21 days on average. The rest of your comments show you truely dont what your talking about and are grasping at anything. Preventing infection is very easily done with proper technique, medication and other methods. Implants are put in the human body all of the time, there are ways of putting things in the human body so that nothing gets into the body. GoreTex (there are many other materials but this is the most commonly used material) is routinely used in surgery and a pouch can be made from GoreTex that a device can be put in so that nothing from it can leach into the body or device. Then there are med ports, G-buttons, miki port, and more.


I think you have it backwards, but not surprising.


Do we really have to go over this again, the liquid threat is pure BS, MI6 even said so. If you had any knowledge or education in chemistry and physics you wouldnt be spewing the company line.

the guy was wearing a disguise, it has nothing to do with the elderly, your trying to connect two dissimilar things.

Have you forgotten that we have to take our shoes off every time!! How do you put all the components in a shoe???? How does 6 oz. of liquid become dangerous in a bottle, but you can drink a gallon of liquid and hold it in you body. I would highly recommend a course in anatomy if you want to continue making comments like this.