nacho

A Dane told me that he knows a family moved back to DK in 2020. I can imagine several reasons for their move:

1) The pandemic/healthcare
2) Crime rate
3) Education for the children
4) Making sure the children can remain Danish nationals after 21 (for those who were born outside DK)

If one is not a SK pilot who has a house and a porsche, the move won't be as bad. We paid 150000 DKK to move 2 old cars back to DK - not little, but it won't make us go bankrupt. Education is a bit issue - the family that moved back has children that were struggling at school. That school gave them a month to catch up, if not they have to move down a grade. It doesn't matter whether it's a private school or public school.

I can also imagine that some Danish families living in Malmo couldn't stand the bi-weekly bombing and the daily shooting.

As for #4, there is a law in DK that when a Danish national who live abroad turns 22, he/she has to actively apply to keep the nationality, otherwise they will lose the nationality (unless Danish citizenship is the only thing that they have). Our children speak Danish fluently and they were visiting their grandparents regularly in DK pre-pandemic, but moving back to DK would remove that uncertainty (you never know when the DK government wants to change the law).

Maybe the new Danish-foreign couples don't have school age children yet to take up school seats yet.

Even in my small town there were Danes moving away - definitely more during the past 3 years or so. I think it's more relating to crime and healthcare (a lot of them are living in farms outside the city), and the pandemic made more people pack their bags.

A lot of teachers in Sweden are around retirement age, some of them might simply stop teaching and retire (my kids had retired teachers teaching them). Another thing I really don't understand about teaching jobs in Sweden, a lot of them are working like 10, 19 hours a week, there are not that many full-time teachers as far as I know.

vanillabean

I don’t have access to this rosy portrayal of Sweden during the pandemic, but perhaps you do and can enjoy the compelling story.

The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to better mental health, a healthier economy and happier schoolchildren
While Sweden's decision to stay open throughout the pandemic generated international debate, the controversy passed most people in Sweden by

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...lth-healthier/

GUWonder

A rosy portrayal has its place too.

So having a much higher number of Covid-19 deaths per capita -- and presumably a much higher number of long Covid-19 illnesses -- than its neighboring countries and a worse employment scene for the poorest and most marginalized segment of the population in Sweden would lead to "better mental health" and "happier schoolchildren"? Misery around doesn't usually make for better mental health and a safer and happier environment, so I'm curious on how the advocates of "the Swedish way" came up with Sweden having "better mental health" and "happier schoolchildren" than is the case in Denmark. That said, I remember seeing lots of very happy children in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India who seemed happy as a lark despite living in abject poverty and worse life expectancy levels; but it doesn't seem like relative poverty and financial pressure in Scandinavia makes for decreased stress and increased happiness (and the good that comes from long-term lower stress levels).

And shouldn't we go with Tegnell's line of "it will take a long time before we know" about how Sweden performed compared to its next-door neighbors during the pandemic?


https://www.businessinsider.com/swed...21-8?r=US&IR=T

If countries going into the pandemic with conditions far worse off than Sweden followed the Swedish approach, or if Sweden had the conditions of say a US, it would have been a far worse Covid-19 massacre than hit the places that got hit hard by the pandemic but took more serious pandemic measures earlier on than Sweden.

As it is right now, it seems like the Swedish pandemic measures applicable to even the accepted vaccinated may still be more restrictive than the Danish pandemic measures applicable to the accepted vaccinated.

Speaking of bizarre, are some employers in Sweden being told they shouldn't have big group meetings in their offices but that going away domestically to a conference center for a meeting that is as big or bigger is just fine? It seems so to me.

I'm trying to get a hold of some stats on what has gone on with hotel rates in Malmo and Copenhagen vs hotel rates in Stockholm during the course of the pandemic. Anecdotally, it seems to me that hotel rates in Malmo and in Copenhagen at this late stage have held up/increased better (for the property owners) than the hotel rates in Stockholm have done (for the property owners).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...20731421994848

nacho

Look at this: https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/To...ketCrisis.html

the810

Sweden is one of very few places in the world that maintained functional society. People were never forced to give up their primal social needs, were always able to go out and live a healthy lifestyle, in the absence of omnipresent fear. That is a huge achievement and it has positive impact on both mental and physical health. There are countless studies on how stress, anxiety and loneliness affect health, including causing earlier deaths. Even if Swedish approach caused some economic damage (which I'm not convinced is true), it would absolutely be worth it in my opinion. People's well-being should come first and being one of the wealthiest countries in the world, Swedish economy can survive a year or two of downturn.

There was no better place to be during the pandemic than Sweden. All the doomsday predictions about Sweden failed. Nothing happened, life goes on relatively normally. And normality is a precious commodity in 2021.

nacho

The problem is that schools don't give parents a choice to stay home. Some parents got fined for keeping their children home (they have various reasons - some children are in risk group and some parents are also in risk group).

It's not normal in Sweden - my children's dental appointment were pushed so far that we didn't even get a time at the time we moved out of Sweden. I remember that all dental treatments were charged as emergency treatment (at least in Skane). If things are really normal, this would not have happened.

If they are really going the restriction-free way, they wouldn't have the need to tell people to keep distance, and wear mask in public transport. The fact is - they were not - I had to queue to get into Ikea. If it's normal, there would have been no restrictions on number of people in shops.

CPH-Flyer

The initial point by some (many?) was that the lockdowns would cause economic devastation and Sweden would soar financially (or at least see far less impact) by not having a lockdown. Someone in this thread famously argued that we were close to having blood in the streets of Italy when people had to fight for food due to the lockdowns. Swedish economy has not fared better than the lockdown horrors of its Nordic neighbours. Probably even worse.

Mental health is a tricky one, as it is very individual and one person's good conditions is another person's disasters. Personally, I am very happy that my elderly family members where not in Sweden, and I feel that Denmark has taken far more care of the weakened people in society. Sitting in Japan, and being unable to travel to Denmark for a long while, the Danish approach gave me a peace of mind that I doubt I would have had had my relatives been in Sweden. Certainly my mental health would have been highly impacted had Denmark been managed the same way as Sweden.
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Having a factor 10 fatality rate compared to Norway, is bound to mean that a lot more people are having their mental health affected by the unexpected loss of a loved one, which I would say is a far greater strain on people's mental health than being unable to have a cappuccino with friends at a café.

Again speaking personally, for most of the pandemic I have been very happy in Japan, at the moment it is a bit more complex as the government is really failing in their approach. But even with the current challenges, there is no way I would switch my pandemic period for Sweden. And to be honest, I don't know anyone who would have preferred the situation in Sweden.

One of the main "doomsday" predictions was that Sweden would see far higher fatalities than it is neighbours, which most definitely came true.

the810

I saw the economy argument many times but I believe this was never the government narrative. From what I recall, it was always about keeping the society open as much as possible.

Regarding the rest of the argument, being from a country that saw high covid fatalities and strict lockdowns, I still don't know anyone who lost their relative due to covid. But I know a lot of people who had all kinds of mental issues due to loneliness, bad lifestyle, etc. The point is, covid may have killed 0,5% of the population, but then there is the remaining 99,5% and their lives matter too. And it's not only about quality of life - stuff like stress, anxiety or loneliness can reduce the length of life. If we shorten lives of 1000 people by 1 year on average to save 20 years of life of one person, is that a good deal? That's a big ethical dilemma and I don't have an answer to that. But nobody even asks. Most of the world got overfocused on one issue and decided to fight it at all cost, no matter how much damage it does to other causes. I think this is wrong and Sweden managed to avoid it.
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Ultimately, as with all other risks in life, we need to keep balanced approach between safety and quality of life. We do dozens of things that carry some amount of risk every single day and so far we accepted that they aren't 100% safe. Yet with covid, many people expect exactly that.

It is also important to keep in mind that society comprises of very different people. Someone who is in their 40s and has a family may be ok with lockdown when it simply means being with their loved ones for a few weeks or months. But then there are, for example, people in their teen years who are basically shut out of their world and alone for all those weeks or months - and this happens at a time when their brain craves and needs social contact, not to mention personal development they're supposed to go through at that age. No psychologist in the world is going to tell you that isolating young people for months is good for them. This is not about a cappuccino, this is about the basic human need to be among other humans.

I absolutely understand the need to take precautions - you won't see me supporting Tanzanian or Brazilian covid strategies. But they must be kept to a reasonable level so we don't destroy the entire society and the health of millions to save thousands. I somewhat support the original concept of flattening the curve and going into short rapid lockdowns when the health care system is threatened. But sadly, most of the world went far beyond that.

Finally, speaking of Sweden's death toll, it is important to note that while they reported fairly high (read "average by EU standards") number of covid deaths, the excess mortality is among lowest in Europe (albeit still higher than Denmark, I think). I'm curious to see how is this discrepancy going to be explained in a retrospective. We might very well find out that tough restrictions carried their own death toll.

GUWonder

The economic arguments were raised to try to defend "the Swedish way" with regard to Sweden's more relaxed ways toward the pandemic during 2020 -- and it was done by various parties when discussing the Swedish experiment. "The Swedish way" was never merely about "keeping the society open as much as possible", and the economic argument to try to defend "the Swedish way" hasn't held up. Unemployment issues in Sweden are profoundly worse than across the bridge in Denmark, and the gap has not gotten better (for Sweden) due to "the Swedish way" being superior to what its neighbors did during the pandemic. If anything, the structural unemployment differences and the unemployment scene otherwise has been made even worse in Sweden during the pandemic than has been the case right across the water in Denmark. Also, the Swedish unemployment figures need to be considered even more in mind with what has happened with disability and other welfare assistance payments for those of employable age but who are not in the Swedish labor market but get by economically due to the Swedish government's social welfare program payouts. Sweden is much more "generous" than Denmark when it comes to paying out money to/for labor market non-participants, and that has implications for making the unemployment figures and Sweden's unemployment scene look rosier than reality.

I can't think of one country to which I've been that decided to fight Covid-19 "at all cost, no matter how much damage it does to other causes", and I've been to a bunch. Every country to which I've been during this pandemic had an approach that it thought suited the balancing act required for the country. Sweden had a eugenics-/survival-of-the-fittest based approach to the whole matter more than was typical for other high income countries, and it lead to a much worse Covid-19 death count than that seen in its neighbors.

Who says that young people being encouraged to and/or able to operate confidently without sprawling social engagement is bad psychologically? It tends to make for better academic performance longer-term and better quality and quantity of life on average than is the case for that which facilitates wannabe "Paradise Hotel" types.

Speaking of Sweden's death toll, it is important to note that Sweden reported extremely high number of Covid-19 deaths when comparing it to the countries that are most akin to Sweden: its neighbors with which it has a lot more cultural, historic and other affinity/similarities than it does with a country that may be "average by EU standards" but doesn't border Sweden.

The Swedish government is always about money before lives when it comes to healthcare dynamics. This is why there are Swedes who keep -- or should keep -- a proverbial rainy-day fund to fund healthcare needs elsewhere in Europe -- or even beyond Europe -- because some "you don't deserve to live because your type are too expensive" Swedish bureaucrat is delivering for the government budget masters.

CPH-Flyer

I don't equate a lockdown with a successful strategy, and I don't equate keeping an open society with a failed strategy. I believe that either strategy could have a potential for success or failure.

I just don't see any measures of success for Sweden, unless not having a lockdown is the actual measure of success in itself. And fair enough that was achieved. But if the path was so successful, what are the metrics that shows the success? Benchmarking against the Nordic countries, not the economy, not the infection rates, not the fatality rate. Mental health? Maybe, but I see that as more of an attempt of post rationalisation when all else is clearly in a worse state than the other Nordic countries. I doubt very much the mental health overall is significantly better in Sweden than it is in the other Nordic countries. Sure there are probably some ups and downs in various categories and amongst various demographics, but as a whole? I am skeptical.
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nacho

I don't recall Denmark had lockdown - people were free to go outside or to shop in some shops. The whole point of the restrictions is to make sure the healthcare system can take care of Covid-19 patients that's on top of what the healthcare system is handling. My kids were online most of the term and did they go crazy? No - on the contrary they are pretty happy about it because they don't have to travel to and from their schools.

I have teachers friends in Sweden who are worried about bringing the virus home and infect their family members who are in the risk group.

It's easy to say that "the virus is not hitting me since I'm healthy and well" - to some extent it is true, however, one can carry the virus and pass it on to other people and it will eventually hit someone who is not healthy. Now that the vaccination is widely available in Denmark and a big part of the population has been vaccinated, the healthcare is able to handle more Covid-19 patients again - hence the lift of restrictions.

The Swedish way would work if the Swedish healthcare system is state-of-the-art, even countries with good healthcare like Germany don't feel that they can handle it.

The local school where I used to live actually have different starting day for each grade and they are meeting outside - that's what Denmark was doing last year before online teaching.

GUWonder

Someone should try to compare what has gone on with government spending on medicines to treat mental illness in Sweden and in its neighbors from 2019 to 2021 to see how that has changed during the pandemic.

the810

Indeed but they weren't the parties that were behind the Swedish strategy. Economic argument was mostly raised by people who wanted to support the economic argument in their own country. It was never the Swedish strategy.

There is a difference between being able to operate independently and cutting all social contacts. Everyone who has any experience in mental health will tell you the latter is one of the worst things for young adults (and anyone else for that matter). Loneliness is a major cause of mental problems, causes anxiety and has impact on length of life. You can find some pre-pandemic articles on this, which warned that we are already experiencing a pandemic of loneliness and described effects it has, including earlier deaths (either because of stress/anxiety or suicide). Lack of social contact as one of the basic human needs causes anxiety and possibly stress which in turn have a negative impact on functions of the body, most notably hearth. People who suffer from social isolation are at higher risk of dying from heart diseases. Loneliness also leads to increased substance abuse and eating disorders which also have a negative impact on health.

I can't speak for others but I've been raising the mental health argument from the very beginning of the pandemic so it's definitely not a postrationalisation on my part. For me, Sweden's achievement is that they managed to keep the society open (without any major disaster occuring, despite warnings of some). That's the most important thing and I still get blown away by the fact that this is even a topic for discussion. Being able to go out is normal. Being able to meet friends is normal. Getting proper education is normal. These things matter and should only be taken away in very extreme situations, if ever. I hate to use the word freedom because it's been privatised by far right nutters, but ultimately it is about freedom. The essential civil liberties were taken away in most of Europe and I don't think it was justified. Sweden proves it is possible to get through the pandemic without such major infirgment on human rights. It is ok to advise people to stop doing certain activities - I myself took a lot of sacrifices. But it was never forced on people who can't handle it anymore.

As someone who has suffered very much from lockdowns and other restrictions during the first wave, I'm eternally grateful I've been able to find safe haven in Sweden. Remembering the state of my (not just mental) health before I came here, I have big doubts about what would happen to me if it weren't for this country because without Sweden, there would be nowhere else to run. Ironically, Swedish strategy might have helped me survive covid without any major symptoms - I was lucky to contract it when I lived a healthy lifestyle, were in better physical shape and generally stress-free. If I got it back home when I was having all kinds of symptoms even without covid, earned 15 kg of weight and basically turned into a couch potato, it could end up very differently.

But Sweden managed to achieve that, even without big restrictions. Yes, health care was under a pressure for a while, but it kept going. There were no "freezers in streets" as many countries promised if we don't do lockdown. I know that some other members on this forum perceive the state of Swedish health care during the pandemic differently, but the low excess mortality proves that it managed to cope - better than in many other countries around Europe.

And just to be clear - I don't consider Denmark to be terrible during the pandemic, it was one of the better countries in Europe. But I still think it went a few steps too far.

But the same can be said in reverse. It's easy to say "let's restrict basic activities" when someone's fine with not doing them. I've heard countless of people who selfishly supported certain measure while openly saying that it doesn't bother them because they wouldn't do that thing anyway. But there are other people in the society who may have very different needs.

Another problem with your argument is that it doesn't make a lot of sense to restrict everyone to protect the few. You might as well restrict just those few (not legally but via recommendations). For example, if we need certain people to cut contacts, we can advise them to do it without forcing everyone else to stay at home. The approach of restricting everyone could make sense if it shortened the length of waves (i.e. restricting everyone for a shorter time instead of restricting certain groups for a longer time) but that didn't prove to be the case. Generally speaking, countries with milder restrictions had them for just about the same time as those with strict restrictions. What varied was the peak of waves, but not their lenght.

GUWonder

The Swedish bureaucrats and the government did raise the economic and social arguments to try to defend "the Swedish way". Repeatedly so at that, both in public and in private.

Cutting all social contacts in Sweden's neighbors during the pandemic? It certainly didn't seem to me that way in Denmark and Norway. In many ways, where in-person social contact became somewhat more regulated, virtual social contact became even more popular and frequent than it already was.

With societal cohesion -- even when the social unity is remote and tied to principles/values/objective -- there is also mental strength that comes from that. Mental health need not coming from being able to party like it's 1999 and to get around to "primal social needs" in packed venues or with strangers or passing acquaintances; in some ways, that kind of stuff actually can cost mental health just as much as it doesn't, if not even more. Could it be a wash? Perhaps, but let's see what happened to the prescription medicine scene in Sweden and its neighbors when it comes to prescribed medicines to treat mental illness in the region.

What went on in Denmark and Norway didn't require being a couch-potato any more than what went on in Sweden during this pandemic. Has there even been any statistically significant change in relative obesity differences between Sweden and its neighbors during this pandemic? I'm certainly not seeing a lot more overweight adults in Copenhagen or Oslo in 2021 than I saw in 2019, but the plural of anecdote is not empirical data.

The healthcare system in Sweden has been under pressure for years and years even before the pandemic. It just has been under even worse pressure -- even more so than its neighbors -- during this pandemic than it already was. How much that Swedish deficiency has contributed to Swedish Covid-19 deaths is something that will have to be determined, but I strongly suspect that Sweden's going cheap on healthcare and elderly care for so long and being under more structural challenges than is the case in Sweden's neighbors knocked off at least a bunch more people in Sweden than would have been the case if those very same people had the good fortune of being residents in Sweden's neighbors instead of in Sweden during this pandemic.

What's going to be interesting to see is what happens with Covid-19 disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths in Sweden and its neighbors during the course of the rest of this year. As it is now, Sweden in somes ways seems even more restrictive with its domestic pandemic measures than what goes on in Denmark with its domestic pandemic measures. Danish employers seem to be at least as eager as -- or perhaps even more eager than -- Swedish employers in pulling back all the employees they can back into filling up offices.

Sweden is typically more about "restrict most/more/everyone to protect the few" than typical around those countries in which I've lived or worked. The pandemic has been sort of an exception to that.

fransknorge

The lie that Sweden has lowest excess death was debunked.