Well said, good point, etc.

Gary, others:

Kirt's people DID give me compensation in order to "use" the material on my site. DId I fail to mention this? Oh well. Well, as I say, I have nothing to hide. What was it? Well, not much, but not nothing. AND, I don't expect anything else (like use fees for further work, etc) since all he'd had to do is change one or two words and then it kind of becomes all his.

Here's how it went, really:

1) I put up very simple site. It has info on it that I don't 100% own. But it refers to and gives credit to the FT, etc. I also share my ways of doing things in this widely known system so that IS 100% mine. That is my "spin" which has proven useful to many. Gee, I now know that thoroughness really works well!

2) within weeks, just that one page web site gets like a billion hits. (man oh man, thinking back I guess I should have tried to sell something else on there and it would have gotten free advertising just by default!)

3) next, my wife and I are talking miles one day: "Hey honey," I say to my wife one day, "some bloke wants to PAY me to take the info (he could get just by reading FT threads) and give me some money for it! They said the site will still be mine. I dunno, seems ok..."

4) she says back to me something like, "will it harm your site or anyone else? It's that gift card thing you keep telling me about, right? Wow, so miles deals DO have value after all, huh? Go for it, whatever. we ate brekky and then went out or something. I could look back for the emails but you get the picture.

5) I bite, kirt comes thru, I forget about it, and we all still earn miles. Cool. We carry on, thousands and thousands of free, widely known GC miles and interest from ING later... many new posters still using my link to get the info and posting on 3 FT threads about GCs.

Gary, the content of that site is not all my writing. I compiled it from my own posts and info found in FT, which almost everyone agrees is a good thing and a necessary thing. But the idea was all derived from places like WSJ, Frequent Flier Forum, FT, and the very fact that people like us exist out there who believe such deals are even worth dreaming up and carrying out! Without that collective way of life we mongers speak of each day, 99% of us would probably say, "Nah, that is not even possible," and just never do it! (remember what it was like BEFORE you know of and tried miles deals?)

So sure, some of the blurbs are re-writes of the posts and my spin was the key to this site of mine being a good thing for new people who wanted a one stop description of the scheme. It still is. Again, my intent was to share it with newbies and friends and to get the ING referrals by having people read it, not my shere solicitation to those people. So unlike Kirt, one coud say I was being more ZEN and just letting the info flow freely in space, while he was peddling it on the street corner of the FT zone. Whatever.

Of course I sometimes posted something saying I want people to refer me, but no more than the next guy does in here. ANd how else should that be done, people? Honestly?

So I suppose in a way, one could argue that the small fee of use I got could be fairly spread among all those who had any one word input on it, or they could go to Kirt and demand more compensation on their own. But if that were to now happen, then everyone in here must also now endure the pain I am going thru in this thread here. Yes, take a piece of the pain of trying to explain myself and fight off all these FT terrosist who are making rude or ill-founded remarks about me or my ways just for doing something a bit more creative than many of them could ever think of. (it was still worth my making my site though, and still worth me being me.) If people wish to share in this game, then they should share in its benefits. We could also just go out and get as many miles as possible as a group and just split it up evenly among all FT members according to say, time in the forum, and then everyone gets the fair share. That would be kind of like how black jack dealers in Atlantic City share their daily TOKE RATE which is all the tips to any dealer in the entire casino in any given week. But Vegas does it differently so what then?

I dont know if it would cool for me to say what the compensation was with Kirt. But I am not upset that kirt took the info and tried to sell his gig, and I did this because I knew it was not wrong to sell my spin on a system of anything I know of. And the same goes for that VIP thing I came up with. It is out there and it is free to use by all in any way they so chose. Because of that premise alone, I should not be deemed guilty of anything by the way of selfish reeping of benefits from FT community members or anything like that!

The site I have is a good idea but the content is from everybody with my spin on it. Kirt bought the spin. That is mine. I am happy with that. Gee, now I know my spin sells without me having to do much work, as long as whatever it is about is a good thing for many. I have not received, nor do I expect one penny more on this one from Kirt. In fact I dont want it. BUT if I ever expand that site or make new different links on it about other new deals for you all to use, then maybe I would be more protective of it like Gary has been, and maybe I will get a lawyer to help me with how best to copyright this and that--for a fee to him of course. But right now, the GC thing is not mine to NOT share. get it?

So I figured I was not really entitled to be upset by Kirt existing and using the material, and the small amount Kirt was offering was not really harming anyone. (I suppose Martha stewart feels that way in her case too, however. ha ha ha)

OK, Patron (with whom I do not with to fight or argue) says that things might be done differently. I'll tell you what should really be deemed unethical or against the philosophy of the FT community is people's continuing ability to "jab" and "raz" other posters to "get their goat" and watch them get upset in public! There are several in here who will continue this but I think they are doing more harm than any kirt or MM buying or selling things like this. I am not really upset because in the greater scheme of thing, I am going to take my loving wife to the far off beaches or resorts using the miles I earned, just like everybody else. AND, I repeat: I had no idea what Kirt would call it, what he planned to do with it, or when or if he would actually ever sell it. Just as if I were Charter One itself, I could care less how the user cashed out, because I got my piece of the pie, just as you all should! And you should! Go put your spin on things and see what happens.

Until this weekend when this particular thread was started, I had pretty much forgotten about Kirt and so how could I warn anyone? Besides, that would be bad to do if you did a deal with someone. First do the deal and then warn people? Makes no sense. He says he gives refunds to dissatisfied customers anyway and that seems pretty cool of him to me. But now everyone in FT knows to avoid what they don't like about his gig so there ya go. No harm done in the end.

I do, however, have to ask the public here on this one:

If you build a one page web site on a topic that is already known in the world by many people and some dude knocks on your door offering you something for it, would you take it?

Sure it took time an deffort to create and I pay for the URL, but some of that time and effort, as Gary knows, is something you have done so many time that it is pretty easy to build and takes nothing to toss it up there on the internet. If you were getting paid for your services, you could bill some flat fee for it because you are being paid as some internet consultant who designs web sites for a living and leverages years of experience to charge that fee. But in reality, as said with the electrician, it does not cost much to do it, only time and experience. So maybe I sold too low! I seem to be viewed as someone with a lot of experience, otherwise all these people wouldnt be nagging me with negative posts in a sea of really nice positive ones! I should try to leverage that, shouldnt I? Maybe I should work hard on expanding that site and charge fees to get into it. Maybe not.

So, some might take a payment and some might not, but would you? It kind of depends on the circumstances I think.

I say just carry on and earn miles and have fun. Geesh!

MM

d00t, I am sorry to now realize you were obviously abused as a child. Your posts alude to that in a way if one thinks hard about it. Anyway, I have this deal for you that should make you smile and you can earn 500,000 airline miles. All you have to do is--

oops! Sorry mate, you cannot know for my post is LONGER than 4 linez.
MM

Just get over it and go get your miles and be kinder to your fellow posters instead of acting like a jerk just to get noticed.

All I can say is that I am very disappointed in what I am reading on this thread.

It makes me think twice about whether or not I should post mileage-earning advice, opinions, recommendations, or other information that could be stolen by another member for profit without contacting me first for permission.

I wasn't in on the gift-card discussion, but over the years I've been involved with quite a few threads that practically turned into full-blown travel guide chapters by the time they were done. I wonder how common this practice is...

Looks like the Marathon Man got busted! It would be nice if the moderators would now step in and put a stop to his constant domination of these threads.

I have two issues with this still. First, many posters contributed to the Charter One gift card site, not just MM, though he did do a great deal of work. These other posters and their experiences may have helped polish and hone the process, I don't know.

Second, I also spent a great deal of time working on a scheme (not really mileage-related) that gained some publicity. When people contacted me asking if they could pay me to more or less give them advice on how they could do it too, I declined in every single case, pointing them to some sites where they could do their homework and figure out their own strategy to make this work for them. I did not pay for the information that I used, and it was not my invention. What I did create was a way to turn turn this free information into a profitable venture, I did not feel right taking even a penny for it. And I was highly upset to find another person using my story on his website so he could earn money from my efforts.

I just think that selling the information and using this community for referrals is just flat-out wrong, no matter how you try to justify it, but that's just me. Those that are against this type of thing should not be accused of being jealous as they didn't think of it first, as this is not the case. I guess it's just a matter of personal ethics.

Not to be rude, but did you even read the replies by MM and myself?

1) I found & read MM's site after readin about the CO deal in the WSJ back in January, and I wanted to use it as the basis for my course. I could have written the course myself from scratch, or hired a writer to do it for $200, but I wanted MM to get some compensation for his work.

2) I emailed him and offered him a deal.

3) He accepted.

Pretty simple, huh?

The only unethical/illegal thing going on in this entire thread is the idiot posting the download link for the course, and other offer to sell copies of MM & my course for $20 through PayPal.

MM wrote his course in his own words, and is 100% protected by copyright laws. As long as I use his original work (I have modified it to fit my own tastes & grammar) I'll pay him a portion of the sales.

Ideas are not copyrighted.

Plus, as you'll notice I didn't even use this site for my research, just the WSJ and MM's course.

Kirt Christensen

Yes, I read this entire thread.

I am not a lawyer, so I didn't even comment on copyright. I have no idea whether what you and MM are doing is legal or not, nor do I care. Whether it is ethical is opinion. You can probably guess my opinion...

Is that what you call it..."your" grammar? We know we can't stop people like you and MM from doing what you do, but do the rest of us a favor and don't call it "grammar".

I'll chime in here and express what seems to be a minority view ... I don't think either Marathon Man or Kirt_Christensen have done anything worthy of the opprobrium that is being heaped upon them. I mean, it's not like they are going to be making a fortune to the detriment of all of us FTers. Lighten up, folks!

I tend to think your goal in here is to see others fall. Have YOU offered ANYTHING good (short or long?) I see nothing. But I am glad you think I am so dominant and powerful, for I am not, but thanks!

I guess it is all a difference of opinion then. So be it. Some FT people may obviously not care to hear from me directly anymore or care to let my posts hold water for them, but I will continue to share my ideas and help people in FT and elsewhere just as they may do in here. If the posts I make are long, kindly follow the dictum of all things written: DON'T READ IT! (oh and dont learn anything from it either. That's unethical, right?). BTW, the FT limits posts to some rather large number of words I believe I have never gone over.

Well, I think it'll sure be funny if we all one day find out that each of our stuff directly helps out the other's now created adversary. I mean, imagine if one day I created some site link or promo that helped out some poster who now clearly thinks I stink! What if their free trip turned out to be 99% a result of something I alone produced? Would they owe me one? If it were in the reverse, would I owe them one. Huh?

Oh well, it wasnt me who wanted to draw lines in the sand, but it is clear that it is getting done anyhow. What a shame we cannot all live in here with very different opinions. I thinkn some people in here WANT the GC gig to die just so they can find someone to blame and be done with the stress of trying to manage it for themselves all the time.

But did you all get your miles and/or anything else out of this GC thing? I hope so. So did I. Still do too.

Will I go to the Abu Griab FT prison for this? Will it affect my pending trips or my earned miles or even the many friends on here I have met? No, not really. It just bothers me that some people have such closed minds, that's all.

I am not planning on taking down my web site or stopping the ability to share it, and I am certainly hoping to gain more of those referrals if and when someone emails me on it. Some do, some don't. Fine by me.

I figure that is pretty good if that teaches those who do use it how to do the GC gig in the first place. I will, however, refer to one case where a poster quietly emailed me and asked me not to put a certain thing on the site because it could cause a problem in the GC scheme, so I took it off there. But that person had asked nicely and did not go around blasting me or anyone for it.

Hmmm, I wonder if that is something for the moderators to consider here. If not, then who do I owe? Let's all think hard about that one. I still maintain I did nothing wrong no matter how anyone slices it.

As for receiving compensation for having the ability to compile data and put a spin on it, I am just curious as to what the majority of people would want to see come out of this anyway? Some here think I did them wrong and yet I wonder: Is this just a blame game or a place to point fingers and tout moral opinions, or what?

What would you have me do? Let the person who has never made any money off of anything they have ever done or been a part of be the first to provide a suggestion. A mature one too-- and you may PM me because I wont respond in this thread. In the meantime, I have other threads to visit and more miles to earn. I think this thread has nothing to do with the EARNING of frequent flier miles. Instead it seems rather detrimental to the meaning of a frequent flier community. I come here for that. See you in the other FT places that do promote it and give us all our miles. I am done responding to this thread. I think those who like positive life should be the same way about it now.

MM

there must be a lot of bored and lonely people to whine on and on in this thread.


Stop all the bickering and attacking, it makes you look small minded and tired.

ken in phx

Actually I think this may turn into a great thread since Marathon Man says he will not post here anymore.

"Actually I think this may turn into a great thread since Marathon Man says he will not post here anymore"

Ned,

are you as classless in person as your above post suggests, sir ?

Ken in Phx

no one was hurt by selling this. And who knows, maybe some buyer was happy? Who cares.

Ken in Phx are you and Marathon Man joined at the hip?