OMNI - Comicwoman's comment reminds me of an old joke told to me by a crusty old sergeant-major in a British Mess.

Seems there were these two young leftenants arguing about making love - one contended that making love was 50% pleasure and 50% work; the other insisted that it was 90% pleasure and only 10% work. They decided to get the Regimental sergeant-major to settle the matter.

Going to the sergeant-major, they explained the issue. The sergeant-major thought for a moment, and opined that making love had to be 100% pleasure.

One of the leftenants asked how he came to that conclusion. The sergeant-major replied, "Because of there were any work at all involved, you officers would be having the enlisted doing it for you."

OK, back to my cave.

Having read everyone's posts, I think that each person has a valid point. Personally, I have no trouble with FC passengers and try to fly in FC as much as I can!
I do at times have problems with children. On one flight from Hawaii to LAX, a gentlemen with a large 4 year old had both sharing a seat. The child was in front of him face up against the seat in front of him. The child was quite pleasant, as the father was. However, 5 hours in coach, with a child in back to back seats in coach is NOT a place for a child. As the flight progressed, the child managed to spill my food, and whack me in the eye. My legs could barely fit in the space the child was crammed into!(And I am 5'3 and we all know how bad the space is in coach) If the child had his own seat, I doubt there would have been any problems.

I thought that this was something that should have been addressed by the FA's. I wrote the airline, and they said that there were certain weight limits, which obviously had not been attended to in this situation.

Another experience that I had was on America West(not one of my favorites by far). I was sitting next to an 11 year old traveling alone. She was a great kid and very well mannered. The flight was delayed and we were all stuck at the gate, not being able to leave(this is another story in itself). The child's parents had paid extra money for her to have some airline escort. NO ONE paid attention to the child. I took her with me, and called her parents, although I was afraid they might think I am some murderer, but I wanted to let them know what was going on. I then approached America West staff, and explained to them that she was not attended too. They whisked the girl away, and I saw her 6 hours later when we returned to our seats.
Apparently, they had taken her and other children to a separate room, and they watched TV, they were NOT given anything to eat. The poor girl was starved. I asked the FA to bring her some food, which she did.
As adults, we are assertive in getting our needs met. Children traveling alone, do not have this skill. I think the airlines should have treated the kids better and with more care. I also wrote America West regarding this, and recieved somewhat of a benign reply.
I guess my point is, both parents and the airlines can be at fault.

Whew, I am exhausted reading all of these posts on this subject. I wasn't going to post again, but I just can't help myself.

First, let me apologize for my earlier outburst on this topic. I was/am frustrated at individuals who, do not have children, feel they have the answer to the problem.

Those of us with children do what we can to keep him/her "entertained", not only for the passengers comfort, but for our own sanity!

NJDavid: I can empathize with the clogged ear situation. My son has had ear troubles since he was 5 months old. Needless to say, descends on airplanes are his ultimate nightmare.

Remember, whether flying in coach or F/C....it is still mass transportation, a little patience goes a long way!

Motherhood and flying
http://cgi.chicago.tribune.com/travel/promos/main2.htm

Thank you Comicwoman. That article is right on!

As the summer vacation is fast approaching, these issues may likely arise again!

One persons opinion:
http://www.pathfinder.com/travel/TL/askmark/

Yep...just yesterday, I got to use my valuable upgrade certificates on AS to fly FC from SEA-BUR and listen to the baby scream its head off for 20 minutes in the seat right in front of me. Then, I got to smell the baby while the mother changed the diapers right there before the snack for lunch was served. Needless to say, I was really hungry after that. Not.

A couple years ago, we were flying Delta in Business class (Before BE)from FRA to ATL. My wife and I have A & B, a family of 4 CDE&F on the bulkhead row.
The 14 year old child was mentally challenged and sitting in C, next to me. He did not calm down for 9 hours. Jumped up and down in front of the movie screen, etc.
Now I'm not complaining about the family, I can't imagine what that must be like to deal with on a daily basis. My problem was with Delta. There was nobody seated in 1st class and I thought that they should have moved the family up there so that everybody else in Business could relax. I mentioned it to the lead FA and she told me that the crew was taking their breaks in 1st.
That was the worst flight I ever had.

I am 6'4" and used to play second row (Rugby) in univeristy. Travelling (almost always on BA) in coach (something I did allot of when I was pursuing a career as an Opera singer) was pretty much unbearable on long packed transatlantic flights. Screaming children didn't help but I always felt more sorry for their parents who often try their very best. Except for the time when I was seated in front of two young children whose parents were up in first and didn't come back once throughout the flight (a transatlantic) to check on their offspring. With that kind of parental attitude you can imagine that the children were not the best behaved individuals. Of course the FA's in coach have enough on their plate on a packed flight to have to look after two boisterous children as well.

Now I am a father with an infant that is currently going through some stranger aniexty and cries when she sees people she doesn't know. I plan on travelling to Europe this summer to take her to visit with her grandparents and hope that she will have past this stage by then but what if she hasn't? Whilst I sympathize with the need of business people to get some needed R and R on long flights or to get some work done am I supposed to not fly because I might inconvience them with, despite my best efforts, my childs cries?

A couple of posters suggest taking the child to coach class. If there are plenty of available free seats that is a good suggestion (even though I will be paying for Biz class service and seating, downgrading to coach is not an option as I won't then have use of the lounges) but if it is a packed flight then what? Why should those who are far less comforatble and less able to distance themselves from my child in coach(many of whom may also be biz people trying to get some work done etc) have to listen to my childs cries any more than those in Biz class, and what about the fact that the airline has allowed people with children, who they have to expect may cry, to purchase a biz class ticket?

As for those who suggest "doping" the child up with some type of medication for the comfort of others all I can say is that I would like to meet you in a scrum!

Maybe a solution is to not allow children under a certain age in biz class (I would hope that my child will be behaved enough to travel unobtrusively in her own seat by the time she is 5 but who knows). This way people who really need sleep or to get work done undisturbed can be assured of a conducive environment. But the airline should then provide some seats in first class at a cheaper rate similar to biz class for those travelling with young children, or at the other end of the spectrum provide more spacious seats and leg room in a certain section of coach for an additional fee for those travelling with children (personally I would take the coach option if I wasn't squashed in to a seat designed for someone about 30% smaller than myself with a child on my lap).

Last comment: for all you harried executives, don't forget that working yourself into a tizzy will only make the situation worse for you. I suggest bringing earplugs or using the ones provided and in Biz class there is enough space between seats that you shouldn't be physically assualted by the lap child next to you unless the parent is being inconsiderate.
Clearly a child should be changed in a toilet especially is smell is involved but you won't catch me sitting a dirty toilet trying to console my child.

[This message has been edited by Mvic (edited 05-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mvic (edited 05-26-2000).]

I have read this topic with interest as I am planning to use FF points to go on my first trip with my children (6 months and 2 years) this fall and had never considered not getting the business class (domestic) seats.
It seems to me that you can no more ban children from any seat on the plane than you could somebody because of their sex, size, smell, orientation, religion, etc. We must remember that we are using PUBLIC transportation and that means that we must accept that we will meet the public on the plane! If you do not like that, charter your own plane!

I do agree that parents have a responsibility to control their children. But each passanger can also approach the FA's and politely ask then to deal with the situation if it is untenable. The same holds true for drunkenness, air rage, or any thing else that is upsetting.

And Mvic, I could not agree with you more!

[This message has been edited by MD (edited 05-26-2000).]

I can always tell (by the look in their faces) who is a parent and who is not. Whenever I encounter a child who is not behaving (within norms) and the parents are doing nothing about it, I take it up with the child directly. I can put on a pretty mean, scary face and it works every time.

If an airline does no provide a changing tray on board, I see no alternative but to change the baby on the seat. If you have lots of practice you can get a poopy diaper off and properly taken care very quickly.

I am also single and frequently annoyed by children. IMHO, it is less annoying in first class where they are not close enough to spew bodily fluids on you. Also IMHO babes in arms should not be permitted in any situation other than when ALL travelers in that portion of the row are a group. And yes, parents DO have a responsibility to control their childrens' behavior to the extent they can.

Okay, I have to throw in my pennies... I don't think most of us traveling on business, with or without families at home, are complaining about the existence of children. We're complaining about children who are allowed to run rampant throughout the entire flight. It is the parent's responsibility to control their children, but all too often this doesn't happen.

Recently on a CDG-JFK flight I spent perhaps the most miserable 8 hours of my life because the parents of two toddlers slept for the duration while their children ran amok in the Business cabin. It was so bad the FAs left the cabin as soon as their service was done and rarely came back. The purser woke the father twice to speak to him about the situation, but he simply didn't care.

As for simply putting in earplugs and ignorning the noise, let me assure you I had earplugs in and headphones on at the same time and still couldn't concentrate on music, movie, or reading.

On the other hand, on a recent flight to SJU I sat in Business Class next to a woman with an 18-month old lap child. I wish I could've seen my own face when she sat down next to me! ;-) But this woman had taken the time to bring toys, snacks, and other items of interest for her child and he was absolutely wonderful for the entire 4 hour flight.

Bottom line, I'll never give a parent a hard time because their small child is crying as we descend, or even is just tired and bored - as long as the parent is willing to take some responsibility and make an effort with the child. But too many parents - like the ones who fly F and put their kids in Y - expect the airline to babysit their kids and the rest of us be ****ed!

Okay, I'm finished ranting... :-)

jAACK: You can add one more to the list of "Different ways to use duct tape".

Uh... I'm pretty cool with kids in the cabin, but I draw the line at changing a diaper at one's seat. That's disgusting. There's food and drink being consumed in the cabin. Would you feel comfortable eating and drinking within inches of strangers' urine and feces?

You can too change a kid in an a/c lav with no changing table provided. I changed my (then) five-month-old son in the tiny reaqr lav of a TW MD80, which took some doing. But I would never inflict this ultimate hygiene crime on fellow pax.