(Gone) RGN - SFO in F $450 one way AI; other N. America cities included
May 3, 2012, 6:04 pm
#1831
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 519
Don't be so sure about that; like any prosecutor, the DOT enforcement has enforcement discretion: cops don't have to arrest every pot-smoker they see, and the DOT doesn't have to fine for every violation that comes across it's path. Especially ones like this.
As far as other lawyers going after them, well, the apparently the DOT says that what the TA/airline did was wrong by not honoring it. That's not a big deal in other contexts, frankly,Just because the DOT says it's deceptive doesn't mean that your Attorney General will. And they've got enough on their hands with real victims: old folks who believed the Nigerian scammers and identity theft and Madoff-like schemes and fly-by-night operations.
But the DOT isn't going to reinstate your tickets. I would be surprised if the TAs get fined on this: morally, you guys simply don't have the high ground, and you know it. You didn't find this fare this when you were researching your trip to Bagan and booked it thinking that it was actually what business class tickets from Asia to the US cost. And yet you're furious, furious, that the tickets are being cancelled.
As far as other lawyers going after them, well, the apparently the DOT says that what the TA/airline did was wrong by not honoring it. That's not a big deal in other contexts, frankly,Just because the DOT says it's deceptive doesn't mean that your Attorney General will. And they've got enough on their hands with real victims: old folks who believed the Nigerian scammers and identity theft and Madoff-like schemes and fly-by-night operations.
But the DOT isn't going to reinstate your tickets. I would be surprised if the TAs get fined on this: morally, you guys simply don't have the high ground, and you know it. You didn't find this fare this when you were researching your trip to Bagan and booked it thinking that it was actually what business class tickets from Asia to the US cost. And yet you're furious, furious, that the tickets are being cancelled.
May 3, 2012, 6:06 pm
#1832
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: United 1K, AA Plat Exec, DL Plat, Marriott Titanium Lifetime Elite, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,872
BINGO. There IS no moral high-ground on commercial transactions. You make me an offer to purchase something, I buy it, and pay you the money. You give me the item. You cannot come back to my house and grab the bananas after I buy them, why can you take back the ticket you sold me?
Hi all,
I've been following this thread closely, all 122 pages so far.
I too have bought a RGN-YVR ticket, mostly on KE, and has since been cancelled by Vayama. I am holding on to another RGN-JFK, on SQ/AF/DL and this one is still breathing so far.
Hypothetical question ...
Vayama claims that this is an error fare, be it currency error or decimal error, I don't care. And Vayama has the right to cancel the ticket without any compensation to the passenger.
Say, my company secretary books me a ticket RGN-ICN for US$12,000 on Vayama. She (knows nothing of ticket pricing, and) shows me a week later and I told her that it should have been US$1,200 instead. I file a claim to Vayama claiming error fare. By that time, the airline, say it's KE in this case, has already correct their fare as they realised that no one will pay US$12,000 for a RGN-ICN ticket.
In this case, will Vayama cancel my ticket and fully refund my money?
It is clearly an error, right? Vayama should return my US$12,000 based on the principle of error fare as defined by their website. Or are the terms and condition on Vayama's website solely to protect their company only.
My point is that if I buy an error fare which benefits the TA/airlines, I'm screwed out of luck. But if I buy an error fare which benefits me, the TA/airlines have the right to cancel. Does not seem a level-playing field ...
Appreciate your constructive comments ...
I've been following this thread closely, all 122 pages so far.
I too have bought a RGN-YVR ticket, mostly on KE, and has since been cancelled by Vayama. I am holding on to another RGN-JFK, on SQ/AF/DL and this one is still breathing so far.
Hypothetical question ...
Vayama claims that this is an error fare, be it currency error or decimal error, I don't care. And Vayama has the right to cancel the ticket without any compensation to the passenger.
Say, my company secretary books me a ticket RGN-ICN for US$12,000 on Vayama. She (knows nothing of ticket pricing, and) shows me a week later and I told her that it should have been US$1,200 instead. I file a claim to Vayama claiming error fare. By that time, the airline, say it's KE in this case, has already correct their fare as they realised that no one will pay US$12,000 for a RGN-ICN ticket.
In this case, will Vayama cancel my ticket and fully refund my money?
It is clearly an error, right? Vayama should return my US$12,000 based on the principle of error fare as defined by their website. Or are the terms and condition on Vayama's website solely to protect their company only.
My point is that if I buy an error fare which benefits the TA/airlines, I'm screwed out of luck. But if I buy an error fare which benefits me, the TA/airlines have the right to cancel. Does not seem a level-playing field ...
Appreciate your constructive comments ...
May 3, 2012, 6:08 pm
#1833
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
I can find a fare for $1500ish in C BKK-CAI-JFK. Roughly same distance, and a 55% discount on items is not unheard of in a sale.
They F'd up. I was just told, "no no, sir, you may be ticketed on DL, with no Korean Airlines flights or codeshares, but the fare is still based off of Korea, so, we cancelled."
What's to stop them from cancelling any ticket that is initially billed as a great sale just because the airline tells them, "oh no, we now realize we can get more money for the fares. Please cancel these tickets, and the tickets of our competitors too so those people also have to search for new flights and potentially pick us." THAT is the issue here.
They F'd up. I was just told, "no no, sir, you may be ticketed on DL, with no Korean Airlines flights or codeshares, but the fare is still based off of Korea, so, we cancelled."
What's to stop them from cancelling any ticket that is initially billed as a great sale just because the airline tells them, "oh no, we now realize we can get more money for the fares. Please cancel these tickets, and the tickets of our competitors too so those people also have to search for new flights and potentially pick us." THAT is the issue here.
there is a big difference between what is a normal fare, and normal operating, and a fare which might appear too low to be true.
airlines and agents don't do what you mention because they have their reputations to protect, and their customer base. any airline that regularly cancelled tickets because they thought they could get more money later would be committing corporate suicide.
you cannot simply pick an extreme position (ALL tickets can now be cancelled and that's what we're fighting for here) based on a single extraordinarily cheap fare.
if this ever went to court, a simple question would be 'did anyone call the airlines to ask about the fare?'... and most would have to reply 'no, because we didn't want it to get found out and cancelled'.
and a lot of these fares are nit just single tickets, people are buying multiples.
that being said, for those with destinations in the US, the DOT info looks promising.
May 3, 2012, 6:14 pm
#1834
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: United 1K, AA Plat Exec, DL Plat, Marriott Titanium Lifetime Elite, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,872
So what you are saying is that its my responsibility to check ALL commerce I complete was MEANT to be sold at the price I pay? Does the vendor have to ask me if I really mean to buy something as well? "Mr. Joelfreak, this is a really expensive car, are you SURE you want to pay $100000 for something that you could buy something that will do the same thing for $14000?"
no it's NOT the issue here.
there is a big difference between what is a normal fare, and normal operating, and a fare which might appear too low to be true.
airlines and agents don't do what you mention because they have their reputations to protect, and their customer base. any airline that regularly cancelled tickets because they thought they could get more money later would be committing corporate suicide.
you cannot simply pick an extreme position (ALL tickets can now be cancelled and that's what we're fighting for here) based on a single extraordinarily cheap fare.
if this ever went to court, a simple question would be 'did anyone call the airlines to ask about the fare?'... and most would have to reply 'no, because we didn't want it to get found out and cancelled'.
and a lot of these fares are nit just single tickets, people are buying multiples.
that being said, for those with destinations in the US, the DOT info looks promising.
there is a big difference between what is a normal fare, and normal operating, and a fare which might appear too low to be true.
airlines and agents don't do what you mention because they have their reputations to protect, and their customer base. any airline that regularly cancelled tickets because they thought they could get more money later would be committing corporate suicide.
you cannot simply pick an extreme position (ALL tickets can now be cancelled and that's what we're fighting for here) based on a single extraordinarily cheap fare.
if this ever went to court, a simple question would be 'did anyone call the airlines to ask about the fare?'... and most would have to reply 'no, because we didn't want it to get found out and cancelled'.
and a lot of these fares are nit just single tickets, people are buying multiples.
that being said, for those with destinations in the US, the DOT info looks promising.
May 3, 2012, 6:15 pm
#1835
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Phx, AZ
Programs: BA Gold, AS MVPG
Posts: 664
Booked thru cheapoair,
Got a call this morning to give them back a call since the ticket is not confirmed.
What should I do in this case?
Booked 3 tickets thru them,
Paper ticket: got cancelled
2 E-tickets: got etikt # and confirmation.
Anyone else got that from cheapoair yet?
Got a call this morning to give them back a call since the ticket is not confirmed.
What should I do in this case?
Booked 3 tickets thru them,
Paper ticket: got cancelled
2 E-tickets: got etikt # and confirmation.
Anyone else got that from cheapoair yet?
May 3, 2012, 6:27 pm
#1837
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
So what you are saying is that its my responsibility to check ALL commerce I complete was MEANT to be sold at the price I pay? Does the vendor have to ask me if I really mean to buy something as well? "Mr. Joelfreak, this is a really expensive car, are you SURE you want to pay $100000 for something that you could buy something that will do the same thing for $14000?"
or if bread, in every supermarket, jumped from $1 a loaf to $100 a loaf, would you call and ask why?
I'm not saying there is an obligation to do so, and that doesn't form part of contract law. but in the absence of the Dot protection, you may well not get a court ordering specific performance where you have knowingly booked multiple tickets for far less than the generally accepted value of that ticket. other remedies sure, or maybe other compensation from the airline, but SP may be a different issue. and a court is unlikely to order an agency to fork out $millions to airlines to honour tickets which passengers knowingly bought as fares which were likely an error.
people keep quoting biz class fares ex bkk to JFK for $1500. is that on a top tier carrier? I don't think so. everyone knows about competition and that come airlines price lower than others. but such heavy discounting for sq F? I've NEVER seen it.
May 3, 2012, 6:30 pm
#1838
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,439
Booked thru cheapoair,
Got a call this morning to give them back a call since the ticket is not confirmed.
What should I do in this case?
Booked 3 tickets thru them,
Paper ticket: got cancelled
2 E-tickets: got etikt # and confirmation.
Anyone else got that from cheapoair yet?
Got a call this morning to give them back a call since the ticket is not confirmed.
What should I do in this case?
Booked 3 tickets thru them,
Paper ticket: got cancelled
2 E-tickets: got etikt # and confirmation.
Anyone else got that from cheapoair yet?
May 3, 2012, 6:35 pm
#1839
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: Hyatt Platinum, UA Premier Gold
Posts: 72
Booked thru cheapoair,
Got a call this morning to give them back a call since the ticket is not confirmed.
What should I do in this case?
Booked 3 tickets thru them,
Paper ticket: got cancelled
2 E-tickets: got etikt # and confirmation.
Anyone else got that from cheapoair yet?
Got a call this morning to give them back a call since the ticket is not confirmed.
What should I do in this case?
Booked 3 tickets thru them,
Paper ticket: got cancelled
2 E-tickets: got etikt # and confirmation.
Anyone else got that from cheapoair yet?
May 3, 2012, 6:36 pm
#1840
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Seattle & Seoul.... and now, Maastricht....
Programs: UA Mileage Plus, NWA WorldPerks deserter, Alaska Airlines Something-er-Other...
Posts: 1,888
Here's what I just got when I asked for the number of their legal department.....
The contract is between the supplier (Korean Airlines) and the purchaser (you). If you feel you have legal grounds for action, it is the Korean Airlines legal department that you might consider contacting.
The fares offered were published by the airlines not the agency. To that end, we followed their requirement to cancel all impacted bookings. It was not Vayama's decision or in our control. Your booking remains canceled and will not be reinstated.
Sincerely,
**********
The contract is between the supplier (Korean Airlines) and the purchaser (you). If you feel you have legal grounds for action, it is the Korean Airlines legal department that you might consider contacting.
The fares offered were published by the airlines not the agency. To that end, we followed their requirement to cancel all impacted bookings. It was not Vayama's decision or in our control. Your booking remains canceled and will not be reinstated.
Sincerely,
**********
May 3, 2012, 6:38 pm
#1841
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 519
if you were looking to fly lax-lga and you are used to paying $500 roundtrip, but all of a sudden, every airline, on every day, was only offering base fares of $5000... and so were all agents... would you call the airline and ask what's going on?
or if bread, in every supermarket, jumped from $1 a loaf to $100 a loaf, would you call and ask why?
I'm not saying there is an obligation to do so, and that doesn't form part of contract law. but in the absence of the Dot protection, you may well not get a court ordering specific performance where you have knowingly booked multiple tickets for far less than the generally accepted value of that ticket. other remedies sure, or maybe other compensation from the airline, but SP may be a different issue. and a court is unlikely to order an agency to fork out $millions to airlines to honour tickets which passengers knowingly bought as fares which were likely an error.
people keep quoting biz class fares ex bkk to JFK for $1500. is that on a top tier carrier? I don't think so. everyone knows about competition and that come airlines price lower than others. but such heavy discounting for sq F? I've NEVER seen it.
or if bread, in every supermarket, jumped from $1 a loaf to $100 a loaf, would you call and ask why?
I'm not saying there is an obligation to do so, and that doesn't form part of contract law. but in the absence of the Dot protection, you may well not get a court ordering specific performance where you have knowingly booked multiple tickets for far less than the generally accepted value of that ticket. other remedies sure, or maybe other compensation from the airline, but SP may be a different issue. and a court is unlikely to order an agency to fork out $millions to airlines to honour tickets which passengers knowingly bought as fares which were likely an error.
people keep quoting biz class fares ex bkk to JFK for $1500. is that on a top tier carrier? I don't think so. everyone knows about competition and that come airlines price lower than others. but such heavy discounting for sq F? I've NEVER seen it.
I am no expert just my own personal interpretation
May 3, 2012, 6:41 pm
#1842
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Trenton, NJ (PHL, EWR)
Programs: A3 Gold, BA Bronze
Posts: 1,633
no it's NOT the issue here.
there is a big difference between what is a normal fare, and normal operating, and a fare which might appear too low to be true.
airlines and agents don't do what you mention because they have their reputations to protect, and their customer base. any airline that regularly cancelled tickets because they thought they could get more money later would be committing corporate suicide.
you cannot simply pick an extreme position (ALL tickets can now be cancelled and that's what we're fighting for here) based on a single extraordinarily cheap fare.
if this ever went to court, a simple question would be 'did anyone call the airlines to ask about the fare?'... and most would have to reply 'no, because we didn't want it to get found out and cancelled'.
and a lot of these fares are nit just single tickets, people are buying multiples.
that being said, for those with destinations in the US, the DOT info looks promising.
there is a big difference between what is a normal fare, and normal operating, and a fare which might appear too low to be true.
airlines and agents don't do what you mention because they have their reputations to protect, and their customer base. any airline that regularly cancelled tickets because they thought they could get more money later would be committing corporate suicide.
you cannot simply pick an extreme position (ALL tickets can now be cancelled and that's what we're fighting for here) based on a single extraordinarily cheap fare.
if this ever went to court, a simple question would be 'did anyone call the airlines to ask about the fare?'... and most would have to reply 'no, because we didn't want it to get found out and cancelled'.
and a lot of these fares are nit just single tickets, people are buying multiples.
that being said, for those with destinations in the US, the DOT info looks promising.
I'm not saying that my position is that every airline WOULD do that, just that if a situation like like were to stand it would mean that they COULD do that. Say you have to go somewhere that one airline is the only option? Where are you then? You have no choice what to fly.
I understand and respect your position that my views are on the extreme end. I just disagree and want to fly in C on an SQ 388 for cheap, and am willing to suffer through not one but TWO legs on DL to do so.
May 3, 2012, 6:42 pm
#1843
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 519
Here's what I just got when I asked for the number of their legal department.....
The contract is between the supplier (Korean Airlines) and the purchaser (you). If you feel you have legal grounds for action, it is the Korean Airlines legal department that you might consider contacting.
The fares offered were published by the airlines not the agency. To that end, we followed their requirement to cancel all impacted bookings. It was not Vayama's decision or in our control. Your booking remains canceled and will not be reinstated.
Sincerely,
**********
The contract is between the supplier (Korean Airlines) and the purchaser (you). If you feel you have legal grounds for action, it is the Korean Airlines legal department that you might consider contacting.
The fares offered were published by the airlines not the agency. To that end, we followed their requirement to cancel all impacted bookings. It was not Vayama's decision or in our control. Your booking remains canceled and will not be reinstated.
Sincerely,
**********
May 3, 2012, 6:49 pm
#1844
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,849
Should ask for a copy of the airline's request to cancel the reservation.
I talked to the airline and they said if a TA issues a ticket, the airline does not cancel it, only the TA can do it.
I talked to the airline and they said if a TA issues a ticket, the airline does not cancel it, only the TA can do it.
Here's what I just got when I asked for the number of their legal department.....
The contract is between the supplier (Korean Airlines) and the purchaser (you). If you feel you have legal grounds for action, it is the Korean Airlines legal department that you might consider contacting.
The fares offered were published by the airlines not the agency. To that end, we followed their requirement to cancel all impacted bookings. It was not Vayama's decision or in our control. Your booking remains canceled and will not be reinstated.
Sincerely,
**********
The contract is between the supplier (Korean Airlines) and the purchaser (you). If you feel you have legal grounds for action, it is the Korean Airlines legal department that you might consider contacting.
The fares offered were published by the airlines not the agency. To that end, we followed their requirement to cancel all impacted bookings. It was not Vayama's decision or in our control. Your booking remains canceled and will not be reinstated.
Sincerely,
**********
May 3, 2012, 6:51 pm
#1845
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Anywhere but home
Programs: UA 1K/MM, DL GM/MM, HH Dia, PC Plat, MR Gold, ALL Sil,
Posts: 4,552
This is just getting ridiculous. Booked RGN-SIN-LHR-DTW on DL ticket stock, no KE segments, on Vayama. Here are the E-mails they sent me in the past 20 hours:
I contacted them by E-mail contesting the cancellation but no response as of yet. Vayama is handling this very poorly, and clearly they are not communicating well internally.
Dear Customer –
Yesterday, May 1, 2012, you completed a booking through our website which we are unable to satisfy due to a fare filing error causing the fares at that time to be artificially lower than required.
As a result of this error we have been informed by our Airline partner, Korean Airlines, of the need to cancel the booking and provide you with a full refund.
Although not what we prefer, this action is in compliance with the Terms and Conditions to which you agreed to at the time of booking. Specifically stated:
Vayama reserves the right to cancel a reservation and provide full refund of all charges on this request in case of fare errors, incorrect fare rules, system errors, availability problems, reservations not confirmed by carriers, and other technical issues that may prohibit Vayama from fulfilling a customer's reservation at the cost provided and in a timely manner.
The issue causing the pricing error has been corrected. With that being the case, we encourage you to return to our website to review pricing and flight options which meet your travel budget and needs.
Yesterday, May 1, 2012, you completed a booking through our website which we are unable to satisfy due to a fare filing error causing the fares at that time to be artificially lower than required.
As a result of this error we have been informed by our Airline partner, Korean Airlines, of the need to cancel the booking and provide you with a full refund.
Although not what we prefer, this action is in compliance with the Terms and Conditions to which you agreed to at the time of booking. Specifically stated:
Vayama reserves the right to cancel a reservation and provide full refund of all charges on this request in case of fare errors, incorrect fare rules, system errors, availability problems, reservations not confirmed by carriers, and other technical issues that may prohibit Vayama from fulfilling a customer's reservation at the cost provided and in a timely manner.
The issue causing the pricing error has been corrected. With that being the case, we encourage you to return to our website to review pricing and flight options which meet your travel budget and needs.
Dear Customer –
As a follow up to the email we sent previously regarding our need to cancel your booking, we inadvertently referenced your booking as being on Korean Airlines rather than the airline booked.
We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. However, the position of the airline remains the same and your booking has been canceled.
Again we apologize for the confusion, inconvenience, and frustration caused.
As a follow up to the email we sent previously regarding our need to cancel your booking, we inadvertently referenced your booking as being on Korean Airlines rather than the airline booked.
We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. However, the position of the airline remains the same and your booking has been canceled.
Again we apologize for the confusion, inconvenience, and frustration caused.
Dear Customer –
As a follow up to the email we sent previously regarding our need to cancel your booking, we inadvertently referenced your booking as being on Korean Airlines rather than Delta Airlines.
We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. However, the position remains the same and your booking has been canceled.
Again we apologize for the confusion, inconvenience, and frustration caused.
As a follow up to the email we sent previously regarding our need to cancel your booking, we inadvertently referenced your booking as being on Korean Airlines rather than Delta Airlines.
We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. However, the position remains the same and your booking has been canceled.
Again we apologize for the confusion, inconvenience, and frustration caused.