Marriott Bonvoy? (Potential new program leak)
Dec 6, 2018, 8:41 am
#301
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
I've said this for a long, long time. Marriott's customers are the hotel owners and developers. The guests are merely the product that Marriott is selling the customer hence why Marriott's CEO talks about how the new program is actually cheaper for its real customers, the owners and developers.
Everyone is in for a rude awakening when the variable award-redemption pricing begins in January and the most popular destinations -- London, Paris, Venice, Rome, French Polynesia, Hawaii, the Maldives, Bali, the Caribbean, and maybe even New York or San Francisco -- are at peak pricing for the vast majority of the year. Sure, there will still be some great values but it will require going to new destinations. Maybe Malaysia's Langkawi instead of Bali or Thailand. Maybe York or Edinburgh instead of London. Maybe Bucharest instead of Paris. Maybe Samoa instead of Hawaii or French Polynesia.
What I think Marriott fails to recognise is whilst in North America the flagship full service brands, Marriott, Sheraton, Renaissance and Westin hotels have been built to a pretty vanilla 3.5*, outside the US they’re frequently 5*, and hence brand uniformity will either result in cuts internationally or improvements stateside. I guess Marriotts following the cutting route - shock, horror!
I think it is also worth pointing out that the vast majority of Marriott's properties, across all brands, in North America are managed by third-party management companies, not Marriott. Internationally, at least at the full-service brands, Marriott manages a majority of properties.
Marriott's biggest problem in North America -- besides the third-party management companies -- is many of the worst legacy Marriott properties were developed under contracts that gave the property a Marriott affiliation for a minimum of 30 or 35 years.
Moreover, at least in Michigan, many of these properties aren't in desirable locales. They were built in the 1970s, 1980s or early 1990s around big corporate clients that no longer exist. Look at the Westin Southfield, the Marriott Southfield, the Marriott Pontiac/Auburn Hills/Bloomfield Hills, the Marriott Troy, the Sheraton Novi, and the Marriott Livonia. Each of these properties had big corporate offices by them when they opened. Not so much anymore, though Southfield still has a fair amount of offices. Most of them are $75–$120 on weekends. The Marriott Troy just started renovations. The owners of the Marriott Livonia keep putting off renovations. The Marriott Southfield finally finished renovations not long ago.
The real money is in limited-service hotels. That's why most of Marriott's new properties in North America are flagged under a limited-service brand.
Plus, labor costs are getting so high that it is very difficult to have a proper, 5-star hotel in North America without astronomical room rates. I doubt there are many properties that could have valet parking, bellmen, a dedicated concierge, gourmet restaurant, room service, and turndown service -- the services and amenities that separate a 3 1/2-star hotel from a 4-star or higher hotel -- with rates of $75 or $100 three or four days a week, year-round.
Last edited by hockeyinsider; Dec 6, 2018 at 8:52 am
Dec 6, 2018, 8:46 am
#302
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
I realize there are a couple of reports here where folks have been told that a hotel is dialing back to meet MR standards. I accept they've been told that but its not something I'm seeing. Hotels add and cut back all the time based on local business conditions. But, for example, changing a chefs table at lunch to finger sandwiches at lunch doesn't reflect a cut back to meet Marriott standards. Marriott standards don't require lunch at all.
When hotels open or are trying to drive business, they seek to exceed standards. When they are busy, the dial back to standards.
When hotels open or are trying to drive business, they seek to exceed standards. When they are busy, the dial back to standards.
Dec 6, 2018, 8:54 am
#303
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Southern California, USA
Programs: Marriott Ambassador and LTT, UA Plat/LT Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 8,764
I realize there are a couple of reports here where folks have been told that a hotel is dialing back to meet MR standards. I accept they've been told that but its not something I'm seeing. Hotels add and cut back all the time based on local business conditions. But, for example, changing a chefs table at lunch to finger sandwiches at lunch doesn't reflect a cut back to meet Marriott standards. Marriott standards don't require lunch at all.
When hotels open or are trying to drive business, they seek to exceed standards. When they are busy, the dial back to standards.
When hotels open or are trying to drive business, they seek to exceed standards. When they are busy, the dial back to standards.
There always seem to be reports of a few hotels doing this or that that cause alarm for some who then raise the flag about all hotels or Marriott conspiring against us. It turns out usually to be a glitch or simple IT error or the biased/uninformed/speculative view of a rogue employee or two without substantiation. It also is too frequent that these reports never seem to identify the hotels involved...even after being pressed. That results in all of us carefully considering the sources of such “alleged info”, usually to the dismay of those doing the reporting here on FT.
Prejudice arises from drawing huge conclusions based on a small sample size. Prejudice arises from fearmongering to try and convince people that a group is out to get us even as that’s not substantiated and almost always not true. These problems are rampant here, too.
Dec 6, 2018, 9:54 am
#304
In memoriam
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MAN
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium, IHG Spire, UA Silver, Dennis The Menace Fan Club
Posts: 1,457
I think you are failing to realize that while newer hotels built in Asia and elsewhere outside N America can often be nicer, they rarely are 5* as you’re pretending here. Yes, newer properties are nicer, and Asia, in particular, has a host of newer full service Sheraton, Westin, Le Meridien, and even Marriott hotels compared with the older builds in N. America—because there simply is more new construction in less expensive Asia. But those are rarely 5* as you’re claiming. Hyperbole doesn’t strengthen your argument, I’m afraid
Dec 6, 2018, 5:29 pm
#305
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
I realize there are a couple of reports here where folks have been told that a hotel is dialing back to meet MR standards. I accept they've been told that but its not something I'm seeing. Hotels add and cut back all the time based on local business conditions. But, for example, changing a chefs table at lunch to finger sandwiches at lunch doesn't reflect a cut back to meet Marriott standards. Marriott standards don't require lunch at all.
When hotels open or are trying to drive business, they seek to exceed standards. When they are busy, the dial back to standards.
When hotels open or are trying to drive business, they seek to exceed standards. When they are busy, the dial back to standards.
Dec 6, 2018, 5:43 pm
#306
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,466
Perhaps I should have made myself clearer, I’m talking business 5* here, JW Marriott/Intercontinental, not the more luxurious 5* Ritz/St Regis brands and certainly not Four Seasons or Savoy - certainly all the Chinese Marriotts and Renaissance’s I’ve stayed at have been very much up to the standards of Stateside JWs and ICs, but with better lounges - No hyperbole in that
Dec 6, 2018, 5:45 pm
#307
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,113
Folks, I like exec lounges as much as the next person, but for crikey's sake, at the end of the day they're just exec lounges. They're not 5 star Michelin restaurants. They're not intended to be a substitute for a full meal, etc, but just a place to relax & have some nibbles/drinks. All the angst, kvetching & the DYKWIA & how dare they not offer more by some of you truly boggles my mind.
Cheers.
Dec 6, 2018, 5:49 pm
#308
Moderator: Alaska Mileage Plan
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,318
Folks, I like exec lounges as much as the next person, but for crikey's sake, at the end of the day they're just exec lounges. They're not 5 star Michelin restaurants. They're not intended to be a substitute for a full meal, etc, but just a place to relax & have some nibbles/drinks. All the angst, kvetching & the DYKWIA & how dare they not offer more by some of you truly boggles my mind.
Dec 6, 2018, 6:20 pm
#309
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
Coffee/tea/juice
Eggs
A couple of fresh fruit options
A protein
Breads
Oatmeal -- Bill goes nuts if he finds a hotel with instant oatmeal
Yogurt
Pepsi products
So ... if they are serving more than one protein, salmon, a variety of meats/cheeses, potatoes, they are exceeding the brand standard.
And ... places in Asia or places where they are offering free alcohol in the evening exceed brand standards. When they cut the chef's table from lunch, they aren't cutting to brand standards.
But yes ... I'm just expecting a place to get something quick without the need to take time to go downstairs and deal with waitstaff, etc. Not that I don't appreciate some of the US lounges that exceed or the international lounges that far exceed.
Dec 6, 2018, 6:37 pm
#310
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
Moreover, brands mean less here because Marriott views having 30 or whatever brands as a way to get more money from its real customers, the owners, as opposed to segregating the best hotels to certain brands that offer higher degrees of service and luxury. Having a J.W. Marriott in Des Moines or wherever just means it's another property that contributes to Marriott's bottom line. With some exceptions, Marriott generally can't have three Marriott hotels in a city, but they can have a Marriott, Sheraton and J.W. Marriott within blocks of each other.
Dec 6, 2018, 6:38 pm
#311
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,755
Except there are multiple reports from multiple elites of multiple properties that previously exceeded brand standards reducing what they provide to the absolute minimum with each of these properties saying Marriott is forcing properties not to exceed brand standards.
This is especially the case when Marriott manages the property.
Imagine if McDonald's allowed some of the franchisees who own and operate the vast majority of restaurants to give you an extra order of French fries just because they wanted to do so. It's kind of the same thing, I think.
What concerns me is the international properties, which have almost always been better than North America properties, will be forced to reduce their over-and-above offerings to match their North American counterparts. I hope this isn't the case, but since Marriott manages more international properties than it manages North American properties it would be easier to make drastic cutbacks in, for example, lounge offerings.
Imagine if McDonald's allowed some of the franchisees who own and operate the vast majority of restaurants to give you an extra order of French fries just because they wanted to do so. It's kind of the same thing, I think.
What concerns me is the international properties, which have almost always been better than North America properties, will be forced to reduce their over-and-above offerings to match their North American counterparts. I hope this isn't the case, but since Marriott manages more international properties than it manages North American properties it would be easier to make drastic cutbacks in, for example, lounge offerings.
The hotel I stay in most frequently, SGS in Bangkok, seems to have changed little to nothing. Marriott may have a corporate arrangement with Pepsi, but there's still Coke in the refrigerator in my room when I get there. And if you order a Coke in one of the F&B outlets on property, you still get what you requested. You can still get points as a welcome amenity (although a bit fewer) and breakfast as PLT. Suite upgrade policy doesn't seem to have changed, same with laundry benefit for PLT members. Come to think of it, I am unable to identify anything which has changed there since Marriott took over other than the website and the availability of email addresses online.
Dec 6, 2018, 6:41 pm
#312
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: Delta Diamond, Marriott Ambassador & Lifetime Titanium, Hertz President's Circle, United Silver
Posts: 6,334
People leak stuff on here and elsewhere all the time, including earlier this year when someone was posting pictures of the new, unified loyalty program collateral. Posting a couple screenshots from a brand standard manual is hardly publishing state secrets.
Dec 6, 2018, 7:24 pm
#313
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: AUS
Programs: BAEC Gold, AA PPro, Hyatt Globalist, Amex Plat
Posts: 7,043
And it would probably get them in trouble legally to do so. But nice for you to encourage that.
Folks, I like exec lounges as much as the next person, but for crikey's sake, at the end of the day they're just exec lounges. They're not 5 star Michelin restaurants. They're not intended to be a substitute for a full meal, etc, but just a place to relax & have some nibbles/drinks. All the angst, kvetching & the DYKWIA & how dare they not offer more by some of you truly boggles my mind.
Cheers.
Folks, I like exec lounges as much as the next person, but for crikey's sake, at the end of the day they're just exec lounges. They're not 5 star Michelin restaurants. They're not intended to be a substitute for a full meal, etc, but just a place to relax & have some nibbles/drinks. All the angst, kvetching & the DYKWIA & how dare they not offer more by some of you truly boggles my mind.
Cheers.
I never in my life thought I'd stay this, but the Marriott forum is beginning to make the AA forum look well behaved, grateful, happy travelers...
Regards
Dec 7, 2018, 2:01 am
#314
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: India
Programs: Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, IHG Plat, HH Gold, Trident Plat, DL Diamond, AI Maharajah
Posts: 29,680
I think you are failing to realize that while newer hotels built in Asia and elsewhere outside N America can often be nicer, they rarely are 5* as you’re pretending here. Yes, newer properties are nicer, and Asia, in particular, has a host of newer full service Sheraton, Westin, Le Meridien, and even Marriott hotels compared with the older builds in N. America—because there simply is more new construction in less expensive Asia. But those are rarely 5* as you’re claiming. Hyperbole doesn’t strengthen your argument, I’m afraid.
Dec 7, 2018, 9:09 am
#315
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Southern California, USA
Programs: Marriott Ambassador and LTT, UA Plat/LT Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 8,764
I am aware that many in Asia (and China in particular) and abroad in general perceive Sheraton as a much better brand than we do in N America. That’s because Sheratons abroad tend to be newer and better train their staff to better service standards. Regardless, very few Sheratons qualify by any measure as 5*. The most likely Sheraton to be 5* may be the Sheraton Grand Sukhumvit Bangkok, which coincidentally is actually a Luxury Collection property.
There similarly are few Westins that qualify for 5*—and those almost entirely belong in Europe, part of the old Excelsior Collection that became Westin properties. The Westin Europa & Regina Venice, the Westin Excelsior Rome, the Westin Palace Madrid, the Westin Paris Vendome (soon to leave Marriott under new ownership to become a Jumeirah), etc. Those are truly impressive hotels...but they are the exception and not even close to the rule.
I also think you may be confusing brand new and shiny with 5*. Those are two distinct quantities that I think you’re unfortunately conflating. A 5* hotel is one of luxury and luxury service. There is a reason that most JW Marriott hotels don’t qualify as quite 5* despite their supposedly being a luxury brand: their service is not to the 5* level simply due to room count and staff/guest ratios making that impossible. If that’s true for JW, I can assure you it’s just as true if not even more true for most Sheratons and Westins and regular Marriotts and Renaissances and Le Meridiens. They may be prettier and newer in Asia, and Asian service may be a bit better on average than that in N America and Europe, but the 5* service standard also is a bit better there in Asia, accordingly. New isn’t 5*.